CJ Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 What a bunch of whiner -- oh my god they dont comply with standards and their browser is slow!! Yeah but their software runs on thousands of hardware and software platforms including mobiles, that has been the philosophy of microsoft right from the beginning. I don't really understand most of what is being said about applications and systems etc but I have to say that the more of your posts I read, the more you are sounding like a brainwashed convert to a cult organisation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinlexusV8 Posted February 10, 2010 Author Share Posted February 10, 2010 Well I go back again stating my point once again that you cannot call for demise of MS coz sombody release something! It is just not possible! they are too big for you small complaints/ whinnings. Well I am not brainwashed or a sales rep for MS. All the various companies putting in benchmarks for performance , features and standards for their products against MS will only make MS get better! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caseys Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 Mate I never said that MS is the first to build these!! Check my msgs and read them again. You sort of suggested in your msg regarding visio that MS doesnt develop stuff but rather they buy. I seem to recall that was Gav with the Visio chap A sort of cloud computing is what you can achieve with mainframes not full virtualization. You have to read up on virulization and also about VMware and HyperV to get an understanding of what full virtualization I am talking about! HAHAHAHAA. A mainframe system can virtualize to the nth degree. You can assign each and every megabyte and go down to the clock cycle on how much of each CPU (which generally they have 128+ of) can be carved up. Not only that the virtualization goes down to such a fine level of tune that you can allocate memory that's nearest the processor rather than furthest, as of course even at the speed of light and a high clock speed this counts when you're doing millions of sequential or parallel IO. VMWare? HyperV? Trust me, it's all old hat. zSeries, iSeries, pSeries, Vax and such were pushing out big CPU, Memory and disk boxes which could be carved up in the 70's/80s. Before both VMW and MS were founded. Not only that but we can dynamically transition a virtual machine. I can have a system with OS, disk and an application running in the UK and migrate it to anywhere else in the world transparently with no interruption. I can also have say 4 instances of the machine thousands of miles apart and one node can go down with no interruption. We can also have 4 different operating systems running on the same box and the same CPU I think that may come to VMWare and HyperV after they literally re-write from the ground up. So no, go away and read up about HA, mainframe and enterprise systems. Then also go away and read about the logistics of keeping such data in sync or a-sync replication over a large geographical region. Then come back and talk to me about virtualization and what is required to keep up a highly utilized, highly available system. Would love to see a VMware box keep 99.999% uptime. Ha ha what a joke, I never forgot about Sharepoint. That is the heart of our business and I did not mention it as most of thepeople may not be familiar with this product as they are with databases, browser, office or desktop OSs. Sharepoint's the product I rave about. Office, Outlook and Windows I have to use through desktop's decisions to deploy, rather than through choice. Mate probably you might have forgotten but the whole argument is about the demise of MS and non-compliance with standards. All I am doing is to argue that it is too big to fail becoz apple comes out with an IPhone (biggest share product in market) or becoz Google comes out with Chrome! You wikll not see the demise of MS due to non compliance with standards becoz lots of companies using their products dont give a toss about compliance with standards, they are just happy with the products MS offers. Oh I know, I'm just liking the discussion of the tangents it went off on I think MS are no longer the monopoly they were in various fields than back in the 80s/90s (sometimes because of the monopoly comissions with the browser wars etc) and there's big vendors out there or more cost efficient models that show MS's huge flaws to their business model. MS may not fail, but they may lose their market lead in the desktop space eventually unless they adapt and become a bit more open/flexible. From a consumer side, yes I agree, people won't give a t0$$, but from a business side of things eventually they will be hacked off with the lack of interoperability of MS Server, SQL and such. In the distributed computing world Linux and such are gaining far more traction with RedHat and SuSE. No one vendor will rule, if you run a business and have zero diversity in your hardware or software you have no wiggle room and no driver for a vendor to improve because you're probably locked into their product, rather than them having to prove their product is/will be better than competitor X. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustGav Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 Well I go back again stating my point once again that you cannot call for demise of MS coz sombody release something! It is just not possible! they are too big for you small complaints/ whinnings. Hold on, whinnings??? Who here has done that, who here has asked for MS to fold?? Are you perhaps using the above statement due to the counter arguments to your statements since you are unable to respond to them? Every time anyone has countered your statement you have changed the goal post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewOW Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 I don't really understand most of what is being said about applications and systems etc but I have to say that the more of your posts I read, the more you are sounding like a brainwashed convert to a cult organisation. Yeah, more like a Linux/Opera user, really! I Apple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustGav Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 No one vendor will rule, if you run a business and have zero diversity in your hardware or software you have no wiggle room and no driver for a vendor to improve because you're probably locked into their product, rather than them having to prove their product is/will be better than competitor X. Don't forget the security aspect of diversity, if it is all from the same code, then it is likely that the same vulnerabilities exist. I have always run multiple vendors in secure network designs PURELY to add an additional layer of complexity, since it is HIGHLY unlikely two different companies will have the same flaw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinlexusV8 Posted February 10, 2010 Author Share Posted February 10, 2010 Try finding your company of choice in this list of top UK brands from BBC http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8149460.stm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewOW Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 Try finding your company of choice in this list of top UK brands from BBC http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8149460.stm I found mine, and it definitely wasn't Microshite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustGav Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 Try finding your company of choice in this list of top UK brands from BBC http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8149460.stm Yet another divergent post away from a possible answer... And I do believe at one stage we were talking about enterprise and corporate, not consumer.... or am I mistaken again? Although interesting 1.Google 2.Microsoft 3.Mercedes-Benz 1.Microsoft 2.Rolex 3.Google 4.British Airways 5.BBC Given that no 5. BA posted record losses, so I interpret that report as being what consumers have heard about for WHATEVER reason, positive and negative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinlexusV8 Posted February 10, 2010 Author Share Posted February 10, 2010 Other than whinning what are you guys doing? Initially started with an argument for the demise of MS, I made a counter argument that it is too big to collapse. then some of you made an argument about slow IE and MS not sticking to standards. Then I made a counter argument of evolving standards and the complexity of MS suddenly changing it software to comply with standards and how it will cause a havoc to already exisitng client base using these products. I also made this argument explaining the various changes I have seen in Office 2007 underneath the skin and how the standards compliance is causing issues with backward compatibility. Even in IE8 we have a compatibility button on the top that renders some of the pages in IE7 format. Bundling all of these extra feature to render pages in different formats doesnt make IE any faster either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinlexusV8 Posted February 10, 2010 Author Share Posted February 10, 2010 Yet another divergent post away from a possible answer... And I do believe at one stage we were talking about enterprise and corporate, not consumer.... or am I mistaken again? Although interesting Given that no 5. BA posted record losses, so I interpret that report as being what consumers have heard about for WHATEVER reason, positive and negative. Mate the one topped by Google is from 2008 and the one topped by MS is from 2009. Check you links again 2009 List: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8149460.stm 2008 List: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7516343.stm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustGav Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 Mate the one topped by Google is from 2008 and th eone topped by MS is form 2009. Check you links again 2009 List: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8149460.stm 2008 List: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7516343.stm Don't get you?? I posted a quote section from the link YOU provided? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustGav Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 Other than whinning wha aer you guys doing? Nobody here is whinning from what I can see...(well, maybe one...) Initially started with an argument for the demse of MS, I made a counter argument that it is too big to collapse. There was one comment on the demise of MS, that has been it.... then some of you made an argument about slow IE and MS not sticking to standards. Then I made a counter argument of evolving standards and the complexity of MS suddenly changing it software to comply with standards and how it will cause a havoc to already exisitng client base using these products. I also made this argument explaining the various changes I have seen in Office 2007 underneath the skin and how the standards compliance is causing issues with backward compatibility. Indeed you did, and this was countered with various arguments both FOR and AGAINST MS including various statements that it is MS who co-designed the Office XML standards, as well as potentially suspects reports sponsored by MS so hardly an unbias position. Even in IE8 we have a compatibility button on the top that renders some of the pages in IE7 format. Bundling all of these extra feature to render pages in different formats doesnt make IE any faster either. And?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 Mate the one topped by Google is from 2008 and th eone topped by MS is form 2009. Check you links again 2009 List: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8149460.stm 2008 List: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7516343.stm "A list of about 1,400 brands was considered by a panel of experts, with more than 2,000 UK consumers taking part in a vote". Just 2000 consumers out of approximately 62,000,000 is hardly conclusive proof eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustGav Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 EL8, I admire your support and dedication to MS and in moderation I'd agree with supporting an employer, however there is also a tipping point where it goes from support to blind devotion disregarding everything else around..... EDIT : I'll qualify that statement... I design data centres for a living so I come across a wide range of hardware and software manufacturers each with their followers each insisting theirs is the best... If it does the job in a supportable, manageable and predictable fashion then it is suitable, however if someone simply chooses a product because some 'evangelist' has jumped up and down about shouting it from the roof tops well that is crazy, however a lot of IT systems are chosen this way and the support/management staff are then stuck with trying to make the best out of a decidedly shaking system to start with. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvsboPUjrGc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGvHNNOLnCk&NR=1 And NO MS aren't the only bunch guilty of being a bunch of stage jumping loonies either before you get worked up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 EL8, I admire your support and dedication to MS and in moderation I'd agree with supporting an employer, however there is also a tipping point where it goes from support to blind devotion disregarding everything else around..... I agree Gav. As per my post earlier, he now sounds more akin to a devoted convert than someone with an unbiased opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinlexusV8 Posted February 10, 2010 Author Share Posted February 10, 2010 No comments, on me being devoted or being a convert of MS! But I do have an open mind and I did not bash any other company in here. I use google and its apps. Have an IPod and IPhone and also a Windows Mobile 6.5 phone from my company. I am on the PHP forum, did years of Java Development. Also did devlopment for VxWorks, eCOS and Windows mobile on the handhelds and embedded side. Used to have two MBR partitions one for MS and the other for either redhat or Ubunto. Did dev on Oracle and MS Sql. Our NAS is linux based, so is our VMWare infrastructure.Use my Xbox, windows live and Facebook (PHP based). Used FF for years and moved onto chrome had loads of fun had to change back to IE8 as some of our ajax apps were not working in Chrome. Used Nokia and Symbian based devices. And loads of other products from different brands. But most of revenue comes form MS products and services! People like it and TRUST the brand! End Off, it will not die out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digsy Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 Well, I'm an IT literate person but I don't work in IT. My workplace does use PCs with IE on it and it does have bolt-on apps that require specific (outdated) versions of IE to run. Fair enough, on machines using those apps, we have that version of IE installed. No biggie. Likewise, some of our heavy analysis code runs much better on Linux platforms, so for people using that, they get Linux boxes. Again, no biggie. Use the right tool for he right job. At home, I use my PC a fair bit. I admit I'm a bit of an MS gimp but that's simply because I want everything on my PC to work with everything else, and in general it does. I use XP Pro and run IE7 and MS office XP - all now out of date. I don't have the latest functionality but then again I don't need it. I realise that IE isn't the most secure browser and XP isn't the most secure OS, but I have a virus checker which I keep up to date, and both hardware and software firewalls. I'm also fairly careful about what sites I visit. I don't care whether or not my browser is the fastest or the best at what it does, as long as it is fast enough and good enough for me. Some sites don't seem to work with IE as well as they do with Firefox, so for those sites I use Firefox instead of IE. Again, no biggie. My smartphone uses Windows Mobile as its OS, specifically because I want it to work seamlessly with my PC. I bet there are billions of other people out there just like me, and its people like us - the ones without any specific agenda or alliegance or and just want things to work - that are probably MS' bread and butter, regardless of their corporate offerings. I used to be a regular visitor to a video editing forum and people would post endlessly in a thread about trying to get a particular piece of software to work in a Windows emulator running on Linux. For the love of God, why bother? If you buy a piece of software that runs on Windows and you want it badly enough, then surely your time would be better spent building a dual boot PC specifically for it. I don't go out and buy a blu-ray DVD and then waste my time trying to make it work in a regular DVD player. I can't run iPhone apps on my WinMo6.5 HD2. You pays your money and takes your choice. Don't buy a cat of you really want a dog. I'd love to have a garage with one tool in a box that could do everything I ever wanted, but I can't. No one product is going to be all things to all men, so get over it. …and FWIW, no company is too big to come a cropper. Just look at GM. They made products that pleased a lot of people most of the time, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinlexusV8 Posted February 10, 2010 Author Share Posted February 10, 2010 Hey if any body interested in MS Surface checked this video http://www.microsoft.com/surface/ Similar to the one used to start this thread. infact there a couple of good video at this location. Another one from hard rock cafe: http://blogs.msdn.com/volkerw/archive/2009/08/13/awesome-microsoft-surface-demo.aspx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozz Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 edinlexusV8 I just finished reading the Tripods quadrilogy (fun blast from the past) and you sound just like the 'capped'. I'm a little scared now. I won't dispute microsoft have shaped computing for the last 30 years (I loved DOS!) but what we don't know (and never will) is how it would have been shaped without microsoft. MS have successfully booted many alternate suppliers out - to their credit, but that doesn't mean the product that remains is necessarily the best, they simple have the best business model and drive. Its interesting to ponder how things could have been without their stranglehold, perhaps we would be much further advanced, maybe not as far. I doubt I'd have to patch our servers and desktops as much tho! Just my philosophical musings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustGav Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 Hey if any body interested in MS Surface checked this video http://www.microsoft.com/surface/ While I'm not pro/anti MS, as digsy has said, right tool for the right job... Surface computing is something I've been looking at in great depth for a system architecture I'm putting together as a hobby/upcoming business idea. While I'd love to use the MS product the price tag is a bit extreme for a home user so I've gone with the open source equiv. Actually, I'll expand on it a little bit, as I have previously mentioned I'm using Win7 due to it's graphics system suiting what I need, HOWEVER windows media centre is far too limited for what I need and therefore I have used an alternative product. Am I knocking MS because WMC is crap, no, it just does not support what I am looking for. Same as I'm not using Windows 2008 server because it is too feature rich (and pricey) for a consumer level product, when all I need is a virtual machine host and a file server There you go.. a bit more pro MS post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorin Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 Hey if any body interested in MS Surface checked this video http://www.microsoft.com/surface/ It's like 2007 in here http://www.mkivsupra.net/vbb/showthread.php?t=121256&highlight=microsoft+surface I still want one, but it's just a big touchscreen at the end of the day, the OS could largely be anything. I liked OS2/Warp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedM Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 that it [Microsoft] is too big to collapse. Nothing is too big to collapse. Roman and British Empires, Enron, various car companies..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caseys Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 It's like 2007 in here http://www.mkivsupra.net/vbb/showthread.php?t=121256&highlight=microsoft+surface I still want one, but it's just a big touchscreen at the end of the day, the OS could largely be anything. I liked OS2/Warp. Liked? We still have kit that runs it Heck cashpoints until about 2005 ran it. Surface computing seems cool. I'm waiting for being able to control it with my mind though. Gesture based computing will take a little while to take over someone who can decently type on a keyboard + a CLI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinlexusV8 Posted February 10, 2010 Author Share Posted February 10, 2010 Nothing is too big to collapse. Roman and British Empires, Enron, various car companies..... Mate, you are taking it out of context," MS is too big to collapse just becoz some competing brand released a new products with great features". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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