Microsoft's View of the Future (WARNING high geek content)

[JustGav]

What about W3C's HTML 5: Scalable Vector Graphics (SVG)???

 

 

Strange how that is supported in Firefox, Chrome, and Opera. (and what about canvas?)

 

What about javascript speed?

[Wez]

Quite a few on here

 

http://www.mkivsupra.net/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=105053&stc=1&d=1265749182

 

Nice chart, you can see how everyone upgraded from ie7 to ie8 and that overall other browsers are gaining users.

[JustGav]

Now go take your meds and kindly stfu if you're not coming back with some infallible proof of IE9 being 'teh bestest'.

 

have you ever worked in a serious IT department or do you work for MS, the only thing we use MS products for is desktops running office as do most serious businesses, although with there latest incarnation of the muppets version with oversized buttons etc they are losing trade to OpenOffice

 

http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/Business/images/kool-aid-man.jpg

[qwarrior]

Guys, sorry to sound so down beat but I've just spent all day dealing with the multiple standards supported and unsupported by different browsers. It's the last thing I want to read on here. Can we not talk about cars again??

 

By the way I have to use the five major browsers on a daily basis and all of them are sh*t. Why don't we develop a truly W3C compliant open source browser project developed soley by Supra owners. That would be interesting, but at least we wouldn't bitch about it.

 

[caseys]

Guys, sorry to sound so down beat but I've just spent all day dealing with the multiple standards supported and unsupported by different browsers. It's the last thing I want to read on here. Can we not talk about cars again??

 

By the way I have to use the five major browsers on a daily basis and all of them are sh*t. Why don't we develop a truly W3C compliant open source browser project developed soley by Supra owners. That would be interesting, but at least we wouldn't bitch about it.

 

 

Said it before and I'll say it again :

 

If you want a secure and efficient (for what it does) web browser, use Lynx.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynx_(web_browser)

 

You can get a version for Linux, Unix, Windows, OSX, Amiga OS, VMS, OS/2, and BeOS. Flash? Java? Don't worry, it won't have issues with those.

 

Gav, found a good vacancy! The W3C standards committee actually has a vacancy - needs a CEO!

http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Recruitment/

[edinlexusV8]

So your point is all the web standards are set years before Microsoft Started devloping browsers and MS ignored it! What a dump point! Web standards are always evolving and they were behind MS most of the time in the past. Obviously due to the market share of MS and the corporate hostilities by the standards organisations MS ignored them.

 

Btw coming to the javascript engine, Google has written a totally new one from scratch and as it being an open platform all the other browsers Mozilla, Opera and Safari are using the same Javascript rendering engine and are performing well. I praise google for putting in the benchmark and MS with catch it soon!

[qwarrior]

Said it before and I'll say it again :

 

If you want a secure and efficient (for what it does) web browser, use Lynx.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynx_(web_browser)

 

You can get a version for Linux, Unix, Windows, OSX, Amiga OS, VMS, OS/2, and BeOS. Flash? Java? Don't worry, it won't have issues with those.

 

Gav, found a good vacancy! The W3C standards committee actually has a vacancy - needs a CEO!

http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Recruitment/

 

I would gladly mate, but have to use IE, Firefox, Safari, Chrome and Opera as a benchmark for everything we do. There's not much call for Lynx compatible sites in the Business world...

[caseys]

So your point is all the web standards are set years before Microsoft Started devloping browsers and MS ignored it! What a dump point! Web standards are always evolving and they were behind MS most of the time in the past. Obviously due to the market share of MS and the corporate hostilities by the standards organisations MS ignored them.

 

 

W3C? HTML5? IE8 could've been fully complaint but isn't. HTML5 was started in 2004 and finalised in Oct 09. I hope that IE9, Safari 5 et al will be HTML5 compliant.

 

Generally standardisation organisations are vendor agnostic, i.e W3C, the IEEE, WHATWG etc.

 

MS are one vendor, they do not write many standards, nor seem to conform with some which are created by consortiums to help benefit multiple vendors. Many vendors, not just MS try to go against the tide and sometimes their path comes up trumps (just look at blu-ray vs HD-DVD, or VHS vs Betamax for examples of standard formats supported by multiple vendors with a single winner in the end).

[Homer]

From the replies on this thread it's very clear who has worked for major blue chip companies in a support, infrastructure or development enviroment

[qwarrior]

Does it make me a geek that I keep getting drawn to this thread??

[imi]

From the replies on this thread it's very clear who has worked for major blue chip companies in a support, infrastructure or development enviroment

 

I wonder if they paid for his MCSE

[edinlexusV8]

Mate, blu-ray and HD-DVD are not complying to the same standard, if they are then you can play an HD-DVD media on a blu-ray. Blu-ray is solely SONY's standard and it won over HD-DVD coz they captured the big companies to use their format. Now bue-ray became the defacto standard for high definition video on DVDs. What is the standards organisation doing when HD media is coming out into the consumer market?? Always innovation goes ahead of standards!

[caseys]

Mate, blu-ray and HD-DVD are not complying to the same standard, if they are then you can play an HD-DVD media on a blu-ray. Blu-ray is solely SONY's standard and it won over HD-DVD coz they captured the big companies to use their format. Now bue-ray became the defacto standard for high definition video on DVDs. What is the standards organisation doing when HD media is coming out into the consumer market?? Always innovation goes ahead of standards!

 

I guess you don't quite understand - Blu-Ray is not Sony's invention, ... here's the shock It's a standard. From a consortium. Unsurprisingly one called the Blu-Ray Disc Association. Comprising of Panasonic, Dell, HP, Hitachi, LG, Philips, Pioneer, Samsung, Sony, Sharp and many others.

 

I was using them as examples, where two formats were standardised (i.e HW made by multiple vendors complying with a standard set by a consortium) but competed with each other. They had a set hardware standard and a set software standard, each formed by a consortium of various vendors to try and get traction of their equipment/software in the market.

 

We the consumer then lose out, i.e as you mention above, incompatiblity, inconsistency and eventually some people sat there with a £400 HD-DVD player which now will have no media published for it.

 

There was an HD-DVD forum. Microsoft was one part of that. The consortium wanted to remove AACS DRM software from the HD-DVD standard, as only Media Player 9 was the only product that worked with it (i.e Linux media players, Mac media players including Media Player wouldn't work with HD-DVD) but one company objected. I'll let you guess who, and many think that was one of the things that killed the standard. Heck, Sony was a member of the HD-DVD consortium too and it did not raise an objection to the removal of DRM.

 

You could say the same about Netscape. That used to be widely used when both the commercial web and IE were in their infancy yet it did not follow standards and no it did not innovate and sadly Netscape is no more.

 

Yes R&D and innovation drive us forward from a technological viewpoint. Standardisation is there to help a good innovation or an evolution of technology gain traction (i.e USB - an IEEE accredited HW standard did instead of having to have a parallel cable, a serial cable, a SCSI cable, a wideband SCSI cable etc). And look how much easier it has made the life of the end user?

 

Imagine then... a world where you can use whichever company's browser you want and each website will work? Imagine how much easier the developer side of things would become to not have to write a site or app that works in Firefox but doesn't in IE or Safari or vica versa?

 

Yes Google and Apple are not playing nice in this arena, Mozilla and Opera are getting a little better, but to truly have a decent web browsing experience which is fast and bug free and has a good turnaround for fixes for exploits until W3C or the Web foundation get all the big players on board that my friend is a mere pipe dream.

[JustGav]

What is the standards organisation doing when HD media is coming out into the consumer market?? Always innovation goes ahead of standards!

 

You not heard of H264/MPEG-4 AVC??

[Dash Rendar]

I used to enjoy getting involved in these debates. 15, 10, even 5 years ago. Now the whole repetitive cycle just frustrates the crap out of me!

 

Where's the justification for saying stuff like "the only thing we use MS products for is desktops running office as do most serious businesses." MS have a significant portion of the enterprise database market, and their virtualisation products are making the use of small and medium sized commodity servers very flexible in the enterprise market... So not just for running office suites.

 

Yes, I do work for a 'serious business', and no, we're not a 'MS house'.

 

[jonathanc]

Ouch, reading through this thread makes my head hurt

 

Me as a regular Joe uses FF at the moment with NoScript. However, I would have to admit I am starting to like the latest IE. FF can be slow at times and also some webpages don't really work in FF. It just boils down to what you use your browser for imo.

[caseys]

You not heard of H264/MPEG-4 AVC??

 

Don't forget Super Hi Def has been standardised.... which looks goooood. Hmm, isn't that a standard defined before anyone's actually pushing it out to the consumer?

 

Next we'll have people standardising the name of whatever storage is larger than a petabyte even though no-one's gone over 999 petabytes yet.... oh, hang on..

[Thorin]

Also if you want most secure and heavily tested browser it has to be IE.

 

bwahahahahahahahahaa......hahahahahahhahahahah

[edinlexusV8]

bwahahahahahahahahaa......hahahahahahhahahahah

 

Check NSS labs and their brower tests for security and phishing

 

http://nsslabs.com/browser-security

[Ian C]

Nice chart, you can see how everyone upgraded from ie7 to ie8 and that overall other browsers are gaining users.

 

 

Except Opera I think that chart just shows when Martin was online

[JustGav]

Check NSS labs and their brower tests for security and phishing

 

That is purely a phising report having a quick scan through..(So I could be wrong) and the conclusion is IE8 and FF3 are equal as far as phising goes......

 

Phising is a user-side issue, and yes fair enough it 'could' be classed as security, however you are now just trying to find things, and if this is the best you have found, all it pretty much says is IE is as good as FF

 

Strange how NSS was commissioned by microsoft to do that report, so you can't claim objectivity.... (as I said,netcraft)

 

Moy said, the study started as a private test for Microsoft's engineering team, which was seeking to make internal improvements. "They decided to release it based on the positive results. Many of the test reports we write do not get released by vendors, but they do get used to improve products. So what does 'sponsored' mean in this case?"

[edinlexusV8]

Well there is also a malware blocking test report above that phishing report!

[marc_p]

Check NSS labs and their brower tests for security and phishing

 

http://nsslabs.com/browser-security

 

Your a bit of a Microsoft keeno aren't you:blink:

 

Your name's not Bill by any chance is it?

[edinlexusV8]

With IE most of the problem is due to the various security levels/zones. Some people reduce the level or use custom level that cause security breach.

 

Also MS tries to please companies by providing backward compatibility with IE6 coz some of the companies are still using IE6 in their network. It took us 2 years to make one of our clients (DWP clients) to upgrade to IE7, they only did it 2 months ago. But this doesnt work like this with FF or Chrome. I experienced first hand how the plugin stopped working after upgrading to a new version of FF. If this doesnot matter then you can upgrade code all day long and do released (even minor versions) and comply to upcoming standards pretty easily.

 

There has been a lot of confusion around the standards and also in the interpretation of the standards for some time (not now tho) but what happens to all the applications that are developed during that time and what happens to all the investment done by companies developing application that run at that point in time? If MS changes IE drastically complying with standards yeah it will make you, a free user very happy and also make the standards watch dog very happy. But what happens to millions of applications? What happens to companies who invested millions in developing their apps?

 

It is just like telling BT to forget about the copper wire as it is not that good and efficient to transmit data and use optical fibre. yeah everybody knows that but there is already a big investment done sometime ago in putting copper wires! this is just a broad comparison.

[JustGav]

With IE most of the problem is due to the various security levels/zones. Some people reduce the level or use custom level that cause security breach.

Offff cooourse, it is other people's fault, if only they used IE in the only way MS wanted to

 

Also MS tries to please companies by providing backward compatibility with IE6 coz some of the companies are still using IE6 in their network. It took us 2 years to make one of our clients (DWP clients) to upgrade to IE7, they only did it 2 months ago. But this doesnt work like this with FF or Chrome. I experienced first hand how the plugin stopped working after upgrading to a new version of FF. If this doesnot matter then you can upgrade code all day long and do released (even minor versions) and comply to upcoming standards pretty easily.

 

And why are they stuck with IE6? Perhaps because of some non-standard functions in there?