steve spedd Posted January 17, 2010 Share Posted January 17, 2010 im 99% sure that the injectors on the NA are 330's, running 0.5 bar and the injector duty cycle is at its max (95%-99% ish) when at WOT. If that helps.... im droppng 650's in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HadeS Posted January 17, 2010 Author Share Posted January 17, 2010 I would suggest a piggyback mate. On standard ecu you get fuel cut when the turbo boost as the stock ecu doesn't recognise boost so it doesn't know what to do. Correct me if I'm wrong. When boost come in the o2 sensor read as more fuel is needed and is adding some? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted January 17, 2010 Share Posted January 17, 2010 im 99% sure that the injectors on the NA are 330's, running 0.5 bar and the injector duty cycle is at its max (95%-99% ish) when at WOT. If that helps.... im droppng 650's in That sounds a bit more like it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve spedd Posted January 17, 2010 Share Posted January 17, 2010 well thats what we noticed when mapping. your at max for the injectors with the stock boost set up on the na-t kits, who ever made it... does make a massive difference to the na mind you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted January 17, 2010 Share Posted January 17, 2010 im 99% sure that the injectors on the NA are 330's, running 0.5 bar and the injector duty cycle is at its max (95%-99% ish) when at WOT. If that helps.... im droppng 650's in I was wondering if they were 220 or 330, then I thought a common upgrade was to the 7M-GTE injectors off the MkIII, and weren't they were 330? Meh. The numbers still wouldn't add up with 330's instead of 220's, as the max duty under stock NA conditions would be 45% instead of 30%, still hopelessly out. Your numbers sound far more plausible. Light boost maxing out the stock NA injectors is what I'd expect. -Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HadeS Posted January 17, 2010 Author Share Posted January 17, 2010 ok so injectors don't need to be changed then? But mapping is advisable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted January 17, 2010 Share Posted January 17, 2010 ok so injectors don't need to be changed then? But mapping is advisable? A mere 7psi of boost runs them at 100% duty, which is bad. I'd say they do need to be changed otherwise you're running a fair risk for not much power. Mapping is more than advisable, it's required. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted January 17, 2010 Share Posted January 17, 2010 ok so injectors don't need to be changed then? But mapping is advisable? Feck me, are you reading any of this? I give up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HadeS Posted January 17, 2010 Author Share Posted January 17, 2010 Feck me, are you reading any of this? I give up! For me if some one running injectors @ 95% and maximing hes NA up it sound good to me. If I would not need any more boost than 9psi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted January 17, 2010 Share Posted January 17, 2010 For me if some one running injectors @ 95% and maximing hes NA up it sound good to me. If I would not need any more boost than 9psi it sound good to me. Excellent, go for it then. I wish you luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HadeS Posted January 17, 2010 Author Share Posted January 17, 2010 well thats what we noticed when mapping. your at max for the injectors with the stock boost set up on the na-t kits, who ever made it... does make a massive difference to the na mind you This what steve wrote I take as a good idea thats all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted January 17, 2010 Share Posted January 17, 2010 This what steve wrote I take as a good idea thats all It isn't a good idea to run your injectors at anywhere near max. I think the ideal is around 80%. At the end of the day you have the recommendations, do with them what you will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted January 17, 2010 Share Posted January 17, 2010 For me if some one running injectors @ 95% and maximing hes NA up it sound good to me. If I would not need any more boost than 9psi 0.5 bar and the injector duty cycle is at its max (95%-99% ish) when at WOT You've picked the lowest figure of 95% and ignored that 0.5bar is 7psi, not 9psi. That is classic signs of someone clutching at straws to avoid spending money to get what they want, which is very frustrating to all of us trying to help you. Going to 9psi from 7 is 10% more air, so you'll need 10% more fuel. If you're at 99% duty, where is it going to come from? You'll run 12.4:1 AFRs at best, in a high compression engine under boost. Hopefully this will translate - you'll fuck your engine very quickly. Buy injectors. Buy piggyback. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted January 17, 2010 Share Posted January 17, 2010 It isn't a good idea to run your injectors at anywhere near max. I think the ideal is around 80%. I have my own thoughts on the max duty cycle issue The accepted wisdom is 80 to 85%, but that's a figure hanging around from when EFI came in, like the 80's. The injectors would overheat and jam/lock open and so forth. Twenty, thirty years later, manufacturing, materials, design, tolerances etc have come on just how much? But it's one of those figures that still mings around in lore. I mean, we know for a fact that the stock 440s run at 100% duty under BPU conditions and I've never heard of one of those injectors failing on these cars. Despite all that, of course I wouldn't run 100% as you are then into uncontrolled fuel territory, any positive fluctuations in boost simply can't be accounted for. But I'd run 95% duty at max revs max boost, no probs - for a start, how often are you *really* at that level? If that's 6800rpm, then shifting at 6500rpm means you only see about 90% duty, easily within the capabilities of modern injectors. Sorry to cloud the thread further but I thought it was an interesting discussion point -Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HadeS Posted January 17, 2010 Author Share Posted January 17, 2010 Sorry for me beeing a bit tight but I'm trying to make a price list as I'm consider about TT swap from Soarer as well. And I dont know which way to follow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted January 17, 2010 Share Posted January 17, 2010 If you are going to scrape by with the single cash then I would advise against it. Things crop up that you don't account for and at the end of the day, if you do it cheaply it won't last very long. Probably best to go with the 1JZ transplant. At least with that you can be almost certain of the costs involved, anything additional won't be crazy (as long as everything is mechanically sound at the moment). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Mitchell Posted January 17, 2010 Share Posted January 17, 2010 If you are going to scrape by with the single cash then I would advise against it. Things crop up that you don't account for and at the end of the day, if you do it cheaply it won't last very long. Probably best to go with the 1JZ transplant. At least with that you can be almost certain of the costs involved, anything additional won't be crazy (as long as everything is mechanically sound at the moment). i agree i have been doing research on going turbo on my n-a and the costs to carry out the project work out alot to get everything to run properly. plus there are some bit which can cause alot of head scratching and a tight budget is not the way to go. so not advised unless you have deep pockets. the 2jz tt conversion is prob the cheapest route which people take and there are a lot of people who carry this out on here. or as above the 1jz is a good route as long as all the mechanicals are good......... every project has its hurdles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_jekyll Posted January 17, 2010 Share Posted January 17, 2010 (edited) ypu will need a piggy back , i use a greddy emanage , this allows you to up the fuel to kerrp the correcy afr and rtemobve the boost cut limiter , an na will not alloe any posotive boost it wilkl cut the fiuel so you need a piggy back thwat will syop thid wow. how much did i have . sorry about that. what i was trying to say in my intoxicated state was, i have an na-t running 8 psi of boost and while building it i tryed alot of hit and miss with the fuelling and management. i would say you 100% need a form of piggyback managment sytem or the car will not work , tha MAP sensor will pick up anything more than 2psi of boost and kill the injectors. one the volt clamp is inforced without upping the fuel you will simply go verry lean and melt your pistons verry fast. i have standard compression with 330s @8psi and that is as far as i am willing to push the injectors i carfully monitor the afr and on wot at full boost i see 11.1 that is towards the rich side but is safe . to have anything more than 10 psi you will need larger injectors and a decompression gaskett as on the standard na compression without the aid or water injection or charge cooling 11psi will pre ignite (knock) and will agin case engine damage . i will say 8psi on a high compession engine makes a massive difference over na. i couldnt beleivce how much faster it made the car. hope this is more usfull than my sambuca induced last post. craig Edited January 17, 2010 by dr_jekyll (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HadeS Posted January 17, 2010 Author Share Posted January 17, 2010 What bhp you are outputing then? have you dynnoed your sup? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Mitchell Posted January 17, 2010 Share Posted January 17, 2010 dr jekyll- what did you do about the oil line from the turbo to the sump? did you have to tap into the sump or something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_jekyll Posted January 17, 2010 Share Posted January 17, 2010 dr jekyll- what did you do about the oil line from the turbo to the sump? did you have to tap into the sump or something? there is allready a plate on the sump for the returne line in the gte position , it has just been blanked , all you need to do is drill the blank out and tapp the pre drilled holes. the sump is verry soft so drilling is easy but beware of overtignening the bolts when you put the plate on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Mitchell Posted January 17, 2010 Share Posted January 17, 2010 oh thats good news then cheers craig ill investigate even more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HadeS Posted January 17, 2010 Author Share Posted January 17, 2010 Could any of you recommend me an nice Piggyback and place (around Derbysire) where I could go to map it? Regards Michael. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davey001 Posted January 17, 2010 Share Posted January 17, 2010 Hey mate, Iam about to start a NA-T Conversion in the next few weeks. dr_jekyll has helped me out loads with all parts needed. Iam no mechanic but feel like I can manage to install myself! The thing that scares me most is blowing my motor tho!!! I bought greddy emanage blue with the boost sensor as recommended by others. Think these are the best and price isnt out of reach either. I paid £160 second hand for mine and £50 for the sensor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HadeS Posted January 17, 2010 Author Share Posted January 17, 2010 so something like http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/GREDDY-E-MANAGE-PIGGYBACK-ECU-FUEL-CONTROLLER_W0QQitemZ290374530188QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item439babb48c ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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