The Right Way to Build a Single?

[Nic]

I'm looking at a single install at the moment and so have been chatting with the owner of the HKS main dealership here in HK. The place is very impressive and does a lot of work on the asian production series race cars and also has done some very impressive builds for customers including many R34's one of which has dyno'd at over 1000bhp, plus quite a few Supra's, most recently one with rebuilt 3.4L HKS engine, T-04Z kit, etc.

 

The head mechanics in the workshop are all trained by HKS engineers from Japan so really know their stuff, so I tend to go with their advice when it comes to my Supra. Anyway I was asking about fitting a single to a Supra, possibly the T-04Z and was interested in the owners views of what else I would need to support the kit. I currently have e-manage, full HKS fuel system, R-Type Intercooler, etc. and so thought I pretty much had all the supporting mods I'd need to run a single.

 

However the owner was explaining that to run a single producing >500hp safely and to get the maximum out of it, then I would need to rebuild the engine with forged pistons, stronger bottom end and rods, etc. Plus he also said that the e-manage would not be up to controlling the mapping for a single.

 

Now I could be cynical and say that he was only telling me this so I would spend more money, but I trust the guy and tend to believe he was telling me what he believed was right from his experience. I would say he has a similar type of attitude to tuning cars as I believe Chris W has, ie. if you're going to do it, do it correctly.

 

I know there are a lot of members running singles on stock internals and using the e-manage and have had no problems, I believe?? So I would be interested in other peoples views on the subject. ie. I have a few questions to debate:

 

1.If you are looking for a 'reliable' >500hp from the 2JZGTE should you rebuild the engine with stronger parts?

2. If not what hp are the stock internals able to 'safely' handle?

3. To 'correctly' map for this sort of power is a stand alone ECU required eg. HKS F-Con Pro V, etc?

[Alex]

If I had the money I'd rebuild but I don't think it's a pre-requisit.

Drag queens have made nigh on 1000RWHP on stock internals and there are alot of stock piston powered cars running high RWHP figures. Ian's and my car both seem to be running well and that's with a Single and an eManage.

I'd never call the eManage ideal I'd have gone for an AEM if I didn't have a VVTi for which there is no P'n'P option. I would upgrade to a standalone if I could, but then if I could afford that I'd proabably be able to afford a built engine too...

 

So what I'm saying is. If you have the money go for a built engine and a HKS FCon V or Autronic or AEM....but if funds aren't going to allow that then I wouldn't hesitate to run a Single via a stock block and an eManage.

 

I'm dyno'ing mine soon to see how well I've managed to map it.

[Ian C]

How long is a piece of string? The stock internals are strong but running more power will wear them out faster I suppose. We haven't had a rash of wrecked bearings or snapped conrods yet, most engine deaths have been from det due to fuelling issues - which no engine will withstand. So it might just be a shorter lifespan rather than a sudden and messy death.

 

I'm a big fan of the E-Manage as I think it's the best bangs-per-buck piggyback out there. It does almost everything you need, has the resolution to fool the sequential TT ECU to run a single, has a decent user interface and doesn't cost a bomb. Plus the stock ECU still takes care of temperature corrections, cold start, idling, aircon idle up etc etc.

 

However, I'm in the fortunate position of being able to get my head around it and map it myself and it's taken me ages If a tuner had to go at it cold and map a TT with a single conversion in two days they'd end up saying it was shit, especially around the 3-4000rpm area where the stock ECU goes haywire controlling the sequential changeover.

 

I'll knock you up a good base map in exchange for some shiny bits from HK if you want

 

-Ian

[Nic]

Cheers for the views guys, pretty much what I was thinking, I've read about a lot of high hp cars running stock internals but heard of very few if any problems. Although I would suspect that we don't hear about a lot of cases when things do go bang, especially in the US.

 

What sort of money are we looking at for an engine rebuild with stronger internals there?

 

I share your opinion Ian about the e-manage, I was very impressed with the difference mine made to my car when I had it installed around 5 years ago. Although mine is only used to map for stock J turbos running in parallel at 1.25bar, so don't really know it's limitations.

 

I'd be interested to know what difference you would see between a well mapped e-manage/single turbo and the same single mapped with a stand alone ECU, could you get much more power/torque using the stand alone?

[Guest Terry S]

Nic, that really is a "how long is a piece of string question............."

[Nic]

Nic, that really is a "how long is a piece of string question............."

 

Yes I know, I thought I'd ask anyway to see what views I got back. How long is your bit of string Terry

[Guest Terry S]

Yes I know, I thought I'd ask anyway though to see what views I got back. How long is your bit of string Terry

 

 

Its a ball mate LOL

[eyefi]

i read alot more about engines going bang in the states these days. at first i think alot of people kept quite about it and it wasn't that common.

 

im a bit worried about it, but just dont have the funds to build. this poses the problem that after going bang it's more expensive to build the engine, so (if that happens) im gonna just drop in a 2nd hander and thats it for me, no more power lust. it's a one shot chance

[Ian C]

I'd be interested to know what difference you would see between a well mapped e-manage/single turbo and the same single mapped with a stand alone ECU, could you get much more power/torque using the stand alone?

 

You could probably get more by controlling the fuelling that bit better. The question is, how much more? Wide open throttle is actually the easiest bit to map with the E-Manage, so a standalone probably won't see me much better off, the AFRs are spot on and the ignition timing is set. The midrange part throttle will be 'cleaner' with a standalone, you may gain say 20bhp and a bit more torque, but a) is that noticeable out of 300-400bhp at that point, and b) is it then worth the unit, fitting, and large amounts of mapping expense?

 

Terry has had good results with his F-Con Pantene Pro V, but it cost him 5 times what my E-Manage setup has cost me /shrug

 

Go standalone if you've got the cash and you've got a good tuner, go E-Manage if youwant to spend a lot less and you've got a good tuner. Spot the recurring theme

 

-Ian

[Chris Wilson]

Nic, listen to the man, he talks good sense.

 

The reason a lot of yanks didn't make a big thing about blow ups was the *uggers were getting new engines under warranty. You know, "Where there's blame (so long as it isn't ME that could possibly be culpable...), there's a claim" mentality now so pervavsive over here. The Yanks are 99% into drag racing, even an idiot can usually make an engine hang together for 12 seconds or less.

 

My single take:

 

Cast iron manifold. TO4 family sized turbo, no need for ball bearings at all, they make very little spool up difference despite what re sellers tell you. Remote wastegate on flexi expansion section, plumbed back into main system. Slightly lower comp forged pistons. Steel rods. MAYBE think of a steel crank. 272 cams. Bigger injectors, stock FPR and rail. Bosch 044 pump, in tank. Bigger rad, decent engine oil cooler (minimum 25 row). Stock flywheel if you want a quiet drivetrain. Decent clutch (mine?). Minimum of AEM ecu, preferably Motec M600 / M800. Wide band Lambda with closed loop set up.

 

Think of fitting lower diff ratio from auto or N/A. TRD LSD. Decent suspension, nothing mad hard, you want it to put it's power down. 17 inch rims, maybe 18 if you MUST...

 

LOTS of mapping on an ENGINE dyno, not a rolling road. Trim cold start and enrichment under acceleration on the road. Wonder where all the time and money went and why the cars not worth much more than the bone stock one on the forecourt up the road

[Guest Terry S]

LMAO, Chris you really are the prophet of doom

[Bobbeh]

LMAO, Chris you really are the prophet of doom

 

A rather patronising one too. Of course, everything we do in this country is better

[Nic]

Nic, listen to the man, he talks good sense.

 

The reason a lot of yanks didn't make a big thing about blow ups was the *uggers were getting new engines under warranty. You know, "Where there's blame (so long as it isn't ME that could possibly be culpable...), there's a claim" mentality now so pervavsive over here. The Yanks are 99% into drag racing, even an idiot can usually make an engine hang together for 12 seconds or less.

 

My single take:

 

Cast iron manifold. TO4 family sized turbo, no need for ball bearings at all, they make very little spool up difference despite what re sellers tell you. Remote wastegate on flexi expansion section, plumbed back into main system. Slightly lower comp forged pistons. Steel rods. MAYBE think of a steel crank. 272 cams. Bigger injectors, stock FPR and rail. Bosch 044 pump, in tank. Bigger rad, decent engine oil cooler (minimum 25 row). Stock flywheel if you want a quiet drivetrain. Decent clutch (mine?). Minimum of AEM ecu, preferably Motec M600 / M800. Wide band Lambda with closed loop set up.

 

Think of fitting lower diff ratio from auto or N/A. TRD LSD. Decent suspension, nothing mad hard, you want it to put it's power down. 17 inch rims, maybe 18 if you MUST...

 

LOTS of mapping on an ENGINE dyno, not a rolling road. Trim cold start and enrichment under acceleration on the road. Wonder where all the time and money went and why the cars not worth much more than the bone stock one on the forecourt up the road

 

Cheers Chris for your opinion and your spec list, very interesting to get you view on this subject.

 

I'm hoping to meet up with the guy (British I think) who had the 3.4L T04Z Supra built by the same tuners recently. Hopefully I can get a ride and some more info about the build and his full parts spec. I know he has an HKS F-Con Pro V stand alone on his, do you have any experience with this Chris? This is the only ECU the tuners use on the big power cars (they use F-Con SX and e-manage for other applications.) As I understand the F-Con Pro V comes with a base map for the Supra. I'm just wondering if this would mean less overall mapping time?

 

The tuners are putting together a parts spec/quote and labour quote for me at the moment.

[Alex]

Fcon V's can only be tuned by HKS Select dealers...CW afaik is not one

[JustGav]

As much as I've heard good stuff about the FCon units.... My biggest worry is always the fact that it is not an open unit, IE you are at the mercy of the VERY few dealers in the UK....

 

Now I realize a lot of people don't want to play with the management, but then again, it seems more and more people are starting to these days... and with a locked down management, everytime you change a major part you in theory would need to get the map checked out to ensure that it is correct.

 

Just my 2p's worth, not that it is worth 2p

[Chris Wilson]

A rather patronising one too. Of course, everything we do in this country is better

 

That's the spirit, a bit af nationalistic pride! `Bout the only thing the Americans do better than "us" is eat...

[Chris Wilson]

As tdaxgav says, the software is not available to the end user, or his free choice of mapper, so that rules it out for me. It may be brilliant, it may be rubbish, but if it's a closed shop very few people will be able to give an unbiased opinion. As far as I am concerned you choose an installer and mapper, THEN you buy the ecu he recommends.

[Guest Terry S]

whilst the F-Con V Pro is a sealed unit you can guy rotary dials which allow adjustment to timing, fueling, rev limit launch limit, fan control, and more I cant think of.

[Bobbeh]

That's the spirit, a bit af nationalistic pride! `Bout the only thing the Americans do better than "us" is eat...

 

Dont get me wrong... it just sounds to me like anything they do doesnt seem to matter to you.. despite the fact they've taken Supra tuning beyond any other country, even the Japs!

 

I am not a drag-a-holic, I prefer track days to the drag strip... I've just noticed the negativity in your posts regarding American tuning.. just wondered why.

[CJ]

... `Bout the only thing the Americans do better than "us" is eat...

You speak for yourself I can munch with the best of 'em!

[Bobbeh]

You speak for yourself I can munch with the best of 'em!

 

Haha.. seriously, if I had access to that much food, so cheap, I'd probably look the same

[Guest majid]

get the GT4088. the best turbo on the market for the street and the top end power is amazing., full boost at4 000 rmp an d ballistic top end

[JustGav]

get the GT4088. the best turbo on the market for the street and the top end power is amazing., full boost at4 000 rmp an d ballistic top end

 

Dude, stop resurrecting posts with just 'Get a GT4088', how about putting up some details as to why you say that? what basis do you have for your statement. Not knocking the 4088 as I've seen a few and I know someone who has already killed one and enjoy it *grin*

[rob wild]

I think you'll find Nic has already gone single and went for the GT3582R details can be found:

 

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/catelog/Turbochargers/GT35/GT3582R_714568_1.htm

 

 

 

get the GT4088. the best turbo on the market for the street and the top end power is amazing., full boost at4 000 rmp an d ballistic top end

[bignum]

Sh£t that lots 2 years old, theres me reading through it like it happened yesterday.