Buying a Chinese take away tonight

[hogmaw]

You're right, the Chinese have sent a very strong message to the world:

 

We're here for ourselves and we don't give a flying fook about anyone else no matter who you are or where you're from. We don't care if you've been duped or co-erced or if you have mental problems - you break our laws, you DIE.

[hogmaw]

if it detures only 10% of people that want to smuggle that cr4p around the world atleast it means ther will be 10% less on the streets and inturne 10% less people stealing to feed there habbit.

 

Not to mention the 10% increase in price due to scarcity. That means 10% more crime for addicts to get the extra money. It also means 10% extra gang warfare to get the 10% market share that's been lost and 10% extra innocent lives caught up in the conflict.

 

There is an easier answer. Legalise all drugs. 100% problem solved!

[CJ]

i think the only way to try and tidy a millionth of the mess this worlds in is to make srtrong examples of people that blatently disregard the rules. if it detures only 10% of people that want to smuggle that cr4p around the world atleast it means ther will be 10% less on the streets and inturne 10% less people stealing to feed there habbit.

 

good on china, sweet and sour chicken for me with a spring roll(pork no prawns) egg fried rice and beef noodles

 

You really need to turn on your spell checker mate. It would give a lot more credence to your posts.

[AJI]

I find that the UK government is very arrogant to think that it has an expectation to change what goes on inside another country's borders.

 

oh wait...they are used to doing this (recently Iraq, and now Iran)......maybe somebody should tell them they are no longer one of the big players in the world these days, seeing as we're nearly bankrupt!

[peter richards]

well the rabbit song was certain X factor material, as for the debate , he broke the countrys laws and paid the price

[imi]

Seems to me Sadam had the same kind of shoot first or gas first policy.Hey we all make mistakes it's just goverment mistakes are a bit bigger

 

Saddam was one of ours.....

 

N.B: OURS meaning the USA, we being their poodle

 

We're in it together, forever

[Chris Wilson]

I don't think I have ever started such a contentious thread, I'll try and think of something else for the New Year Michael look out....

[dr_jekyll]

You really need to turn on your spell checker mate. It would give a lot more credence to your posts.

 

thers a spell checker? i could really use it

[Dragonball]

You're right, the Chinese have sent a very strong message to the world:

 

We're here for ourselves and we don't give a flying fook about anyone else no matter who you are or where you're from. We don't care if you've been duped or co-erced or if you have mental problems - you break our laws, you DIE.

 

Seems fair...

 

We did the same with our death penalty...that's why we abolished it eventually

[Dragonball]

I find that the UK government is very arrogant to think that it has an expectation to change what goes on inside another country's borders.

 

oh wait...they are used to doing this (recently Iraq, and now Iran)......maybe somebody should tell them they are no longer one of the big players in the world these days, seeing as we're nearly bankrupt!

 

Yes - we should have left Hitler to get on with it...? Or maybe the holocaust never existed?

 

Or Serbia...?

 

Or the Kurds...?

 

Maybe we should leave a country who threatens to wipe another off the face of the earth with the capability of doing so...

 

What do you reckon?

[AJI]

Sorry, I am struggeling to see the link here.

 

Does China threaten to wipe another off the face of the earth or something?

 

 

My point was that the UK government seem to automatically assume they have influence in any other country. There seems to be an amount of anger from the UK government towards China in that the Chinese government didn't jump through the hoop and do what we [the UK] told them.

Afterall this was their justice system and not ours.

 

 

The rights or wrongs of what goes on inside a country's border is a totally different matter. Who is to say something is right or wrong when it comes to the Chinese deciding which offenses are punishable by death or not?

Is our justice system right in the way it allows so many offenders to walk free or early release?

 

 

 

(my second sentence was more tounge in cheek - hence the smiley)

[hogmaw]

 

My point was that the UK government seem to automatically assume they have influence in any other country. There seems to be an amount of anger from the UK government towards China in that the Chinese government didn't jump through the hoop and do what we [the UK] told them.

Afterall this was their justice system and not ours.

 

 

The rights or wrongs of what goes on inside a country's border is a totally different matter. Who is to say something is right or wrong when it comes to the Chinese deciding which offenses are punishable by death or not?

Is our justice system right in the way it allows so many offenders to walk free or early release?

 

Every justice system in the world (including China's) is based on one system that was developed in the UK and refined over many centuries. The very pillars of civilisation depend on justice, and the measure of how civilised a country is can be measured by the strength and efficiency of that system. I think the UK authorities have every right to tell the world of China's abhorrent treatment of one of its citizens.

[imi]

I think the UK authorities have every right to tell the world of China's abhorrent treatment of one of its citizens.

 

we did, they told us to piss off......

 

guess they arent playing the game like we want them to...

 

BAD CHINA BAD..... perhaps we can kung fu their arse.......i'm sure we taught them that too

[Chris Wilson]

Business as usual down the Chinese take aways, no protests, no graffiti or slogans adorning the walls or windows, just goodly queues of respectful customers, eager to pay to fill their western guts. I can only conclude the man on the Clapham omnibus doesn't give a damn they euthanased one of his fellow citizens for attempting to smuggle drugs. This `bus rider must be a real heathen About the only ones in a lather seem to be the politicians, that mature, respectable, contrite and globally caring lot down Westminster.

[AJI]

Every justice system in the world (including China's) is based on one system that was developed in the UK and refined over many centuries. The very pillars of civilisation depend on justice, and the measure of how civilised a country is can be measured by the strength and efficiency of that system. I think the UK authorities have every right to tell the world of China's abhorrent treatment of one of its citizens.

 

Totally agree with that.

 

China has its own interpretation of justice as do we here in the UK.

For them, to let off a convicted drug smuggler would not have been justice and as you point out, the strength and efficiency of that system is a measure of how they keep civilised.

The strength and efficiency showed through when they never broke their own system as suggested they do so by the UK government.

 

As with all free speach countries the UK has the right to tell the world what it thinks about other countries, but as the UK is not really a BIG influential player these days, nobody will be interested in what we [the uk] have to say.

(Again, slightly tounge in cheek comment).

[hogmaw]

The strength and efficiency showed through when they never broke their own system as suggested they do so by the UK government.

 

It's not about the Chinese 'breaking' their system to allow the man to get off. Their system is flawed because it convicted him in the first place without a proper trial. Then it was flawed again because when the mistrial was pointed out by appeals from the UK, they failed to rectify it!

 

Weak system = mistrials = low standard of civilisation. The Chinese have a very poor record on looking after their people. It was only 20 years ago when the government (yes the same one as the one in control now) literally crushed their own people under tanks in Tiananmen Square. Could you imagine that happening in Trafalgar Square or any other 'civilised' country?

[marbleapple]

Every justice system in the world (including China's) is based on one system that was developed in the UK and refined over many centuries.

 

Don't agree with you there I am afraid. It's simply not true.

 

With regard to Teniman Square (I presume I spelt it incorrectly) did the man get run over or shot in the end or did he just walk away? - serious question.

 

If he lived then he succeeded, if he died.... he just made a mess.

 

It was only 20 years ago when the government (yes the same one as the one in control now) literally crushed their own people under tanks in Tiananmen Square. Could you imagine that happening in Trafalgar Square or any other 'civilised' country?

 

It wasn't that long ago we shot shell shocked soldiers for cowadice and ran the slave trade. We massacred any who stood against us when we ruled 2/3 of the earth and suppressed numerous races. We British have a short memory.

[imi]

It wasn't that long ago we shot shell shocked soldiers for cowadice and ran the slave trade. We massacred any who stood against us when we ruled 2/3 of the earth and suppressed numerous races. We British have a short memory.

 

We (UK Govt & Army) are responsible for the thousands that are being killed in iraq and afghanistan TODAY.

[marbleapple]

We (UK Govt & Army) are responsible for the thousands that are being killed in iraq and afghanistan TODAY.

 

Well IMI I don't agree with your opinion on Iraq and Afghanistan I am afriad. I know you are quite bitter and clear on the subject but I am in support of it tbh. I won't discuss that with you though because we will just fall out

[dangerous brain]

Netherlands 0.91

 

Attitude towards drugs is a very minor part of how lawful or not a population as a whole is. I lived in Holland for 2 years and actually experienced a significantly lower subjection to drugs and their effects than I do here in the UK. What I did however encounter significantly more of was community spirit, Village style life even in built up areas, police popularity even at 2am in busy cities (they have a huge rapport with the public that brit police really could learn from), and a simpler outlook on life than we seem to have. Their drug laws are perhaps an indication of their ability to police themselves, our inability to handle even alcohol shows very much the state of our own discipline.

 

Tannhauser I don't know where you get the time and energy from. You're arguing with embittered blood-thirsty narrow-minded right-wing xenophobes who get their education from the Sun, the Mail and the pub. Much as your crusade is noble, I'd give up if I were you.

 

Give it up? You could because whats a voice in the middle of thousands? I see what he is saying, I'm not sure I agree but I see what he is saying. I also don't see the point in veiling your support for whats being said, we are, given your analogy a thick, un-informed lot so you need to stoop to our level and be obvious

 

 

"There would be times he would have extravagant ideas, he could open an airline," she added. "Then there were times when he would be extremely religious and wanting us to lead a secluded life."

I am often accused of flighty ideas and often like a secluded life (I'm very anti-religious and with a passion so opposite there) could i be bi-polar or just normal?

2) Witness statement from Luis Diaz, who met him in Poland:

Quote:

He was living in very stressful circumstances – he seemed stuck in Poland, without money, and without any way of making a living. It seemed clear to me that he was mentally ill. He told me all kinds of crazy things

Oh come on how soft is that? If I was stuck in Poland without money and needed to get somewhere else I could easily find myself trying more extravagant methods of getting out. I'm a determined individual when I have focus does that make me mental?

3) Witness statement from Paul Newberry includes:

Quote:

Akmal latched onto us. Immediately it was clear that he was mentally ill, although he was a very likeable person, friendly and very open. However, he was clearly suffering from delusions and it seemed to me he was a particularly severe case of manic depressive.

and

So all of a sudden this bloke is a doctor with the ability to recognise mental dysfunctions and diagnose them?? Why did he not act on those diagnosis before the guy went off drug running?

 

Quote:

Akmal lived in his own fantasy world - it was difficult for us to know what was fantasy and what was reality when he talked. He told us he was living in some kind of centre for refugees or asylum seekers in Warsaw, but I have no idea where that was exactly.

Tell you what go speak to almost all refugees about their predicament and I guarantee you that you will think that their expectations and desires are delusional, and quite often you as the more informed would be right

4) Witness statement from Gareth Saunders:

 

Quote:

I am not an expert in mental illness, and at the time I was unaware of the diagnosis of bipolar disorder. However, it was very clear that totally delusional. He perpetually thought things were going to work out in ways that had nothing to do with the reality around him. He would think that his grand plans would come about, though it was clear to the rest of us that they would not.

 

It would be totally unlike him to get mixed up in drugs. However, it would be totally typical of him to fall for some kind of story that some drug dealer might spin to him concerning making his record in China. Indeed, I remember one time when I met Akmal in a bookshop for a coffee. It was an area of Warsaw where any normal person would know a lot of drug dealers would hang out. But Akmal would be oblivious to that. He would be so desperate for human contact that if some shady character came up to him to talk, Akmal would have gone on and on about his song, and it would have been easy for someone to see that he could be exploited. Anyone could recognize that. I am no expert, and I certainly did.

 

Maybe below the belt a little but you just have to watch the X-Factor to see that this is not a mental problem but an affliction that quite clearly affects a huge amount of people. In this country we seem to encourage lunacy and far fetched dreams, in fact certain elements make vast sums of money from others encouraged dreams (similar situation but without the TV show perhaps?)

5) Statement from doctor - who can't really comment on his illness, but can comment on the likelihood of him being involved in drugs:

 

Quote:

I read that Mr Akmal Shaikh has been charged with drug smuggling. In my experience of Mr Akmal Shaikh this is totally out of character of the patient I knew. As his doctor, I am concerned that Mr Akmal Shaikh has since progressive medical and mental conditions.

Utterly unprepared to make an actual diagnosis, that write up could be written about anyone other than someone already commited to an asylum or a known drug dealer.

 

I immediately made contact with The British Foreign Office. I wish to assist Mr Akmal Shaikh in his medical and mental condition, if necessary in China.

who wouldn't want to be seen to be trying to help out in a high profile case if approached by the press?

6) Emails sent from Shaikh when he was in Poland. You could take a look. Apparently, he sent hundreds of rambling emails to the British when he was in Poland i.e. before he was arrested.

 

He wanted in to anywhere other than Poland where he was miserable, we are known the world over as an easy touch

 

Summary: it's all anecdotal, but it's enough to raise alarm bells. The real issue is that they chose not to follow it up. According to Reprieve (where most of this stuff is sourced):

 

You say it wasn't followed up but how do you know that? How much of chinese intelligence are you party to? bandwagons both ways are easy to ride.

 

Quote:

The Chinese authorities originally indicated that they were willing to let a local doctor assess him but this was later refused. Reprieve with the assistance of the FCO also sought permission for Dr Peter Schaapveld, a forensic psychologist, to see Akmal and paid for him to pay for him to fly to China but upon arrival he was denied access to Akmal, no explanation as to why was given.

Just to be clear, if he had severe delusions following from schizophrenia or manic-depression, then he may have had very little idea wtf is really going around him.

 

Executing him in those circumstances would then make as much moral sense as executing an animal for having drugs smuggled inside it.

This I 100% agree with you on. The Chinese government are not known for their leniency and I do not doubt for a moment that this case was railroaded. I do think that with as much pressure as the UK can bring to bear on a situation the man that made the decision to go ahead was in his mind sure it was the right way to go. Culturally they are different. They have a huge population issue that we so far don't have which goes a long way towards explaining their lack of regard for human life. This lack of regard is quite evident in law there. Take us back 200 years and remember that we hung people just for stealing (funny how a lack of resources causes abominable laws)

 

__________________

Expertise on the internet is hard to gauge.Oh yes but some people make it easier to gauge than others

 

 

 

 

Originally Posted by imi View Post

would be nice if we followed our own "just" system and not use the "shoot first and ask questions later" policy . may I remind you about WMD and Iraq as one of MANY recent examples of a F...k up.

 

Face it, we are a country of political whores with a selfish agenda and dont really give a toss about anyone else.

Seems to me Sadam had the same kind of shoot first or gas first policy.Hey we all make mistakes it's just goverment mistakes are a bit bigger

 

This is a whole other argument and really has no place within this particular argument in any way shape or form.

 

 

The rights and wrongs of the situation are very debatable, but playing devils advocate for a minute, the Chinese have sent a very strong message to the world:

 

"Bring drugs into our coutry and face the most serious consequence!"

 

By doing it to a British national they have added strength to that message, showing that they won't be pushed around, or let anyone get away with it regardless of what those nationals might expect to be able to get away with back home. I expect it will make some opportunist traffickers think twice.

 

That I believe will ultimately have proven to be their resolve on this case. In this instance the guys either a martyr or a divil worthy of burning, its such a fine line and depends on your viewpoint as to which is which.

[dangerous brain]

i think the only way to try and tidy a millionth of the mess this worlds in is to make srtrong examples of people that blatently disregard the rules. if it detures only 10% of people that want to smuggle that cr4p around the world atleast it means ther will be 10% less on the streets and inturne 10% less people stealing to feed there habbit.

 

good on china, sweet and sour chicken for me with a spring roll(pork no prawns) egg fried rice and beef noodles

 

Unfortunately as others say in this thread it won't actually make a 10% dent in the trade of drugs it will just up the price by 10%. That will have the knock on effect of 10% more crime required to pay etc etc. There is no easy answer to drugs or their effects.

 

Yes - we should have left Hitler to get on with it...? Or maybe the holocaust never existed?

 

Or Serbia...?

 

Or the Kurds...?

 

Maybe we should leave a country who threatens to wipe another off the face of the earth with the capability of doing so...

 

What do you reckon?

 

Again off topic, in a moral debate there are links but its barely tenable and clouds the content of the original discussion

Every justice system in the world (including China's) is based on one system that was developed in the UK and refined over many centuries. The very pillars of civilisation depend on justice, and the measure of how civilised a country is can be measured by the strength and efficiency of that system. I think the UK authorities have every right to tell the world of China's abhorrent treatment of one of its citizens.

 

I beg to differ old boy. The origins of democracy and its first demise was with the Romans a couple of thousand years ago. Where does a country that is struggling to govern itself get off on telling another how to conduct its affairs?

 

It's not about the Chinese 'breaking' their system to allow the man to get off. Their system is flawed because it convicted him in the first place without a proper trial. Then it was flawed again because when the mistrial was pointed out by appeals from the UK, they failed to rectify it!

 

Weak system = mistrials = low standard of civilisation. The Chinese have a very poor record on looking after their people. It was only 20 years ago when the government (yes the same one as the one in control now) literally crushed their own people under tanks in Tiananmen Square. Could you imagine that happening in Trafalgar Square or any other 'civilised' country? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/d8/Tianasquare.jpg/800px-Tianasquare.jpg

 

Civilised? What are you gauging civilization on? The chinese were living off the ground in constructive housing with gunpowder and silk not to mention other technologies stolen whilst we in europe were still scratching around in the mud. Their approach to human rights seems questionable but I can already see an attitude against the working population paying for those that don't in this country. If this country had to try and support 70% more people than it could really afford to then our hot head law in their own hands brigade would string up 90% of the accused as we have in the past.

 

Well IMI I don't agree with your opinion on Iraq and Afghanistan I am afriad. I know you are quite bitter and clear on the subject but I am in support of it tbh. I won't discuss that with you though because we will just fall out

 

 

Guys get a room other than this one. Our stance on Iraq and Afghanistan are not about human rights in China. If anything the Chinese take a significantly stronger stance to the perceived muslim problem on their borders, they just indiscriminately massacre them!!

[Tee from China]

The Chinese have tried him, in their legal system, one that you accept when visiting their country. Kitchens, heat and all that? A strong message has been sent out that may well reduce further attempts at none indigenous people attempting to break their legal and ethical codes.

 

Exactly, they have been discussing it here in China at length and make an example to both indigenous and non indigenous people that if you do the crime you take the consequences of that action

 

Drugs are bad and I have no sympathy even though he was a fellow Brit

 

btw I can and do have a Chinese meal everyday

[Tee from China]

Business as usual down the Chinese take aways, no protests, no graffiti or slogans adorning the walls or windows, just goodly queues of respectful customers, eager to pay to fill their western guts.

 

Thats because Chinese Take-a-ways are run by Hong Kong nationals who have British passports and are not classed as Mainland Chinese and don't even speak the same language! as in Cantonese rather than Mandarin

[Tee from China]

Every justice system in the world (including China's) is based on one system that was developed in the UK and refined over many centuries.

 

How the feck do you come to that conclusion? China had laws thousands of year before the UK even existed so how can that be?

 

Plain and simple = when in Rome do as the Romans i.e. 'break Chinese law suffer Chinese Justice' the end

[marbleapple]

China had laws thousands of year before the UK even existed

 

I suspect humanity had laws from day one, even before China,... simple social bounderies which created moral obligaitons. The "king" set rules and others followed.

 

With regard to China, I was told when studying law that in our country stats show that punishment is not a deterrent and that criminals rarely consider the punishment prior to committing the crime. I would guess (and that is all that it is) that if punishment was death, potential offenders might be dissuaded from the crime significantly more than an ASBO and 3 months in a young offenders institution. Perhaps China has this right.

 

I heard on the news last night that UK support for the death penalty is increasing. I don’t see this as a bad thing and socially if the majority want it then it should be considered.