Buying a Chinese take away tonight

[Paul]

Is this what the UK thinks? Or what the media has you believe?

 

BTW - You've got too many eee's in Chinese

 

Ain't much Heroine there though

[Chris Wilson]

 

BTW - You've got too many eee's in Chinese

 

Eees obviously not Chinese then.

[marbleapple]

Is this what the UK thinks? Or what the media has you believe?

 

A fair and very valid point. I like what you did there. You pay attention to my posts? I'm honoured!

 

BTW - You've got too many eee's in Chinese

 

I'm British, I'll have as many as I like.

[Mike]

How was that funny?

 

It's funny because it's true

 

Thankfully he does have the energy.

[Tannhauser]

What evidence is there that he was mental at the time of the crime?

 

OK, I've done a little reading on this, if you're interested (or even if you aren't, because I've still done it ).

 

Here are a few snippets:

 

1) His daughter claims history of bizarre behaviour, though of course, she has a vested interest in saying so:

 

e.g.

"There would be times he would have extravagant ideas, he could open an airline," she added. "Then there were times when he would be extremely religious and wanting us to lead a secluded life."

 

2) Witness statement from Luis Diaz, who met him in Poland:

He was living in very stressful circumstances – he seemed stuck in Poland, without money, and without any way of making a living. It seemed clear to me that he was mentally ill. He told me all kinds of crazy things

 

3) Witness statement from Paul Newberry includes:

Akmal latched onto us. Immediately it was clear that he was mentally ill, although he was a very likeable person, friendly and very open. However, he was clearly suffering from delusions and it seemed to me he was a particularly severe case of manic depressive.

 

and

 

Akmal lived in his own fantasy world - it was difficult for us to know what was fantasy and what was reality when he talked. He told us he was living in some kind of centre for refugees or asylum seekers in Warsaw, but I have no idea where that was exactly.

 

4) Witness statement from Gareth Saunders:

 

I am not an expert in mental illness, and at the time I was unaware of the diagnosis of bipolar disorder. However, it was very clear that totally delusional. He perpetually thought things were going to work out in ways that had nothing to do with the reality around him. He would think that his grand plans would come about, though it was clear to the rest of us that they would not.

 

It would be totally unlike him to get mixed up in drugs. However, it would be totally typical of him to fall for some kind of story that some drug dealer might spin to him concerning making his record in China. Indeed, I remember one time when I met Akmal in a bookshop for a coffee. It was an area of Warsaw where any normal person would know a lot of drug dealers would hang out. But Akmal would be oblivious to that. He would be so desperate for human contact that if some shady character came up to him to talk, Akmal would have gone on and on about his song, and it would have been easy for someone to see that he could be exploited. Anyone could recognize that. I am no expert, and I certainly did.

 

5) Statement from doctor - who can't really comment on his illness, but can comment on the likelihood of him being involved in drugs:

 

I read that Mr Akmal Shaikh has been charged with drug smuggling. In my experience of Mr Akmal Shaikh this is totally out of character of the patient I knew. As his doctor, I am concerned that Mr Akmal Shaikh has since progressive medical and mental conditions.

 

I immediately made contact with The British Foreign Office. I wish to assist Mr Akmal Shaikh in his medical and mental condition, if necessary in China.

 

6) Emails sent from Shaikh when he was in Poland. You could take a look. Apparently, he sent hundreds of rambling emails to the British when he was in Poland i.e. before he was arrested.

 

Summary: it's all anecdotal, but it's enough to raise alarm bells. The real issue is that they chose not to follow it up. According to Reprieve (where most of this stuff is sourced):

 

The Chinese authorities originally indicated that they were willing to let a local doctor assess him but this was later refused. Reprieve with the assistance of the FCO also sought permission for Dr Peter Schaapveld, a forensic psychologist, to see Akmal and paid for him to pay for him to fly to China but upon arrival he was denied access to Akmal, no explanation as to why was given.

 

Just to be clear, if he had severe delusions following from schizophrenia or manic-depression, then he may have had very little idea wtf is really going around him.

 

Executing him in those circumstances would then make as much moral sense as executing an animal for having drugs smuggled inside it.

[Dave17]

Oh well it's all done and dusted now, sympathies to his family.

[Chris Wilson]

A dog wouldn't have had a choice, he had, he took it, and the associated risks. Or was he so delusional he didn't see the problem with meeting with whoever financed this, taking instruction, memorising it all, travelling across the world with someone else presumably paying and acting out the deed? If this country was a lot more decisive, less open to manipulation by other countries, the media and PC, we might have less Akmals wandering around here distributing misery. There are an awful lot of "ifs" in your defence of him, you'd make a fabulous addition to some inner city legal aid law practice

[imi]

Whether you are Kookoo or not, dont smuggle drugs into China. Why not try your luck with the UK, worse come to worse you will end up in a lovely cushy hotel for an extended stay (some call it prison)

[Tannhauser]

A dog wouldn't have had a choice, he had, he took it, and the associated risks. Or was he so delusional he didn't see the problem with meeting with whoever financed this, taking instruction, memorising it all, travelling across the world with someone else presumably paying and acting out the deed?

 

He only took a choice if he was in the position to make a choice. If he was delusional, he wasn't capable of making that assessment, which puts him in exactly the same situation as a dog.

 

I don't know the circumstances behind how he arrived in China, but the situation you suggest is possible. Vulnerable people of all types are a godsend for traffickers, and there has been a growing trend in targeting them.

 

Years and years ago, a friend of mine - who had aways shown signs of bipolar, but had no history of treatment - was arrested. I think he was in someone's shed or garage or something. He was convinced the IRA were trying to have him assassinated. He was in an institution for a while. The last time that I met him, medication was doing a good job of controlling the dopamine surges that made him think every shadow was hiding an assassin. The point is, at the time, anyone with the will could have easily manipulated him.

 

If this country was a lot more decisive, less open to manipulation by other countries, the media and PC, we might have less Akmals wandering around here distributing misery. There are an awful lot of "ifs" in your defence of him, you'd make a fabulous addition to some inner city legal aid law practice

 

And that's the problem with your analysis, in my view. You want to turn this guy's case into a symbol of victory over the values that you feel are under attack. Yet in so doing you are ignoring principles that are as much a part of a sane, common-sense, traditional world as the ones you want to champion.

 

One of these is 'beyond reasonable doubt'. No just system of any political persuasion should be using a 'shoot first and ask questions later' policy. That's not decisive, it's neglectful. If the state decides that an individual has to pay the ultimate price, then it has to make damn sure that it's 'in the right'. And you're right, there are nothing but 'ifs' in his defence. They are 'ifs' that should have been investigated, and they weren't.

[Chris Wilson]

As a senior Chinese government member said, it's wrong to expect to meddle in their sovereign right to their own judiciary. We should be putting our own judicial shambles into order before laughably telling other nations their business. Is bipolar disorder the latest trendy excuse after the "abused as a child" one, for the next generation of incompetent crooks? I think I'll have the Peking duck tonight.

[Chris Wilson]

Investigating risible ifs and buts to the nth degree has brought our courts to their knees, that and flagrantly bogus injury claims. We are now so over populated with a large percentage being wrong doers, the courts just cannot finance or operate under the strain of a system as you suggest. It sounds ideal, but idealism has unrealistic costs. We already let thousands walk who should be incarcerated, because our prisons are full, making every case 110% watertight has never, and will never, happen. The Victorians put "nutters" into asylums, often tragically, we put them back on the streets, often tragically. Nothing is perfect. As 90% of the people I seem to meet and talk to these days claim some sort of stress, angst, psychosis or `ism, a system that allows their usually imagined problems to give them free reign will result in even worse anarchy than we currently have

[imi]

 

One of these is 'beyond reasonable doubt'. No just system of any political persuasion should be using a 'shoot first and ask questions later' policy. .

 

would be nice if we followed our own "just" system and not use the "shoot first and ask questions later" policy . may I remind you about WMD and Iraq as one of MANY recent examples of a F...k up.

 

Face it, we are a country of political whores with a selfish agenda and dont really give a toss about anyone else.

[Stratty]

I still like Chinese Food...

[Tannhauser]

As a senior Chinese government member said, it's wrong to expect to meddle in their sovereign right to their own judiciary. We should be putting our own judicial shambles into order before laughably telling other nations their business. Is bipolar disorder the latest trendy excuse after the "abused as a child" one, for the next generation of incompetent crooks? I think I'll have the Peking duck tonight.

 

There are many conditions which are of doubtful validity and are part of a culture of 'syndromisation'. At the risk of causing wsidespread offense on here, dyslexia and ADD are two of them, in my view. Bipolar, however, is a serious mental illness. Your characterisation of it as a 'latest trendy excuse' shows a wilful ignorance of a disease that has been known about for a very long time. 'Wilful' because, as a very bright guy, it would have taken a minimum of effort on your part to have avoided such a conflation.

 

Your Peking duck awaits. It's not every day you get to celebrate the death of a British citizen of undetermined mental health in a foreign prison. Sweet and sour? Just tell 'em to put the sweet on, your bile at the state of the UK will balance it out nicely.

[Tannhauser]

Investigating risible ifs and buts to the nth degree has brought our courts to their knees, that and flagrantly bogus injury claims. We are now so over populated with a large percentage being wrong doers, the courts just cannot finance or operate under the strain of a system as you suggest. It sounds ideal, but idealism has unrealistic costs. We already let thousands walk who should be incarcerated, because our prisons are full, making every case 110% watertight has never, and will never, happen. The Victorians put "nutters" into asylums, often tragically, we put them back on the streets, often tragically. Nothing is perfect. As 90% of the people I seem to meet and talk to these days claim some sort of stress, angst, psychosis or `ism, a system that allows their usually imagined problems to give them free reign will result in even worse anarchy than we currently have

 

I agree with many of your points here, but I think that the 'ifs' in this case are anything but risible. They had him for two years and they couldn't do a forensic assessment on him?

[Wez]

MMMMmm, just had chicken and black bean sauce, very tastey

[Tannhauser]

would be nice if we followed our own "just" system and not use the "shoot first and ask questions later" policy . may I remind you about WMD and Iraq as one of MANY recent examples of a F...k up.

 

Face it, we are a country of political whores with a selfish agenda and dont really give a toss about anyone else.

 

I don't understand what point you are making.

 

The government made some terrible decisions over Iraq, and did indeed follow the 'shoot first' principle...though, as you know, that's oversimplifying things.

 

In what way does that apply to trying to ensure a citizen held abroad has a fair trial?

 

I also think you should read some political biography before jumping to those conclusions about politicians.

[Tannhauser]

MMMMmm, just had chicken and black bean sauce, very tastey

 

You're a strange man.

[imi]

I don't understand what point you are making.

 

Who are we to lecture others when we ourselves are tainted, makes us look like hypocrites.

[Wez]

MMMMmm, just had chicken and black bean sauce, very tastey

 

You're a strange man.

 

Why, its quiet at work and me and a colleague fancied something nice for lunch, I will deff be going back there, food was cracking

[Dragonball]

would be nice if we followed our own "just" system and not use the "shoot first and ask questions later" policy . may I remind you about WMD and Iraq as one of MANY recent examples of a F...k up.

 

Face it, we are a country of political whores with a selfish agenda and dont really give a toss about anyone else.

 

Unfortunately I believe you are right ... politicians expenses and bankers greed being ideal examples

 

Mind you - they are mostly public school educated and vote Conservative!

 

(Come on - stop messing around lets REALLY start an discussion )

[SteveR]

Interesting discussion, let's make sure it remains civil.

Thank you that is all.

[formatzero]

would be nice if we followed our own "just" system and not use the "shoot first and ask questions later" policy . may I remind you about WMD and Iraq as one of MANY recent examples of a F...k up.

 

Face it, we are a country of political whores with a selfish agenda and dont really give a toss about anyone else.

 

Seems to me Sadam had the same kind of shoot first or gas first policy.Hey we all make mistakes it's just goverment mistakes are a bit bigger

[Ark]

The rights and wrongs of the situation are very debatable, but playing devils advocate for a minute, the Chinese have sent a very strong message to the world:

 

"Bring drugs into our coutry and face the most serious consequence!"

 

By doing it to a British national they have added strength to that message, showing that they won't be pushed around, or let anyone get away with it regardless of what those nationals might expect to be able to get away with back home. I expect it will make some opportunist traffickers think twice.

[dr_jekyll]

i think the only way to try and tidy a millionth of the mess this worlds in is to make srtrong examples of people that blatently disregard the rules. if it detures only 10% of people that want to smuggle that cr4p around the world atleast it means ther will be 10% less on the streets and inturne 10% less people stealing to feed there habbit.

 

good on china, sweet and sour chicken for me with a spring roll(pork no prawns) egg fried rice and beef noodles