An Eye for an Eye?

[Gaz6002]

Interesting discussion.

 

Is the justice system there to punish people, or reform them?

[Scott]

Sadist.

 

The rest of you are all fucked up too. Call yourselves civilised? Just a bunch of barbarians happy to resort to the same violence as murderers and criminals - and then try and justify it! Unbelievable.

 

Definitely, civilisation is failing in stopping crime of all varietys. Every single type of crime is on the increase, has been for years. You might see a small decline from one year to the next, but the overall trend is that it is increasing. If one year a profile is down 1% the next year its up 3%.

 

Cutting off the hands of starving thieves is where it always went too far.

 

There is common ground in every train of thought. Someone rapes and kills your wife/partner/husband etc and then gets xx years in a cushy prison with sky tv and better living than most brits, including UK soldiers?? Fantastic. I'm sure your statement would be "at least the sentence was civil".

 

In fact, has anyone ever said that about a murderer or violent crime?

[Scott]

Interesting discussion.

 

Is the justice system there to punish people, or reform them?

 

IMO you are missing the word "meant". It is meant to reform them, does anyone think that the method of reform is working?

 

I would rather prevent a car crash than reform my driving after it happened. Prevention is the key to everything that goes wrong in everyday life, other than crime. The crime is ok, as long as the person is reformed afterwards.

[Abz]

Surely that would just enforce the violence that they use as 'right'?

In knife crime for example they don't need to be stabbed back or even given the death sentence. Though really they would deserve it for taking away someone's life like Tony said.

 

A more strict sentence of say 30 years with no chance of coming out early even on good behaviour would make it much more better. Add 5 years to carry a knife & make it 10 years if you carry a gun or knife. Harsher sentences although not an "eye for an eye" punishment would make it more deterrent.

 

This is the reason why we have such a high crime rate of violence, because the sentences are not as harsh as they use to be or should be. You can get away with murder so some people think its worth killing, ending someone's life for 10 years in a comfy tax paid cell.

[S44M KT]

Interesting discussion.

 

Is the justice system there to punish people, or reform them?

 

Say a loved one of yours is Abused/Raped/Murdered etc... Would u rather that the person was "punished"? or just "reformed"

 

surely you would want both...

[Dave17]

Definitely, civilisation is failing in stopping crime of all varietys. Every single type of crime is on the increase, has been for years. You might see a small decline from one year to the next, but the overall trend is that it is increasing. If one year a profile is down 1% the next year its up 3%.

 

I'd love to know where you pull some of your information from.

[Scott]

I'd love to know where you pull some of your information from.

 

Ok so I have generalised a bit with every crime, I should have put violent crime. Apologies.

 

The problem IMO is the whole civil rights thing. IMO if you wave the law, you wave your civil rights. If prison was more like prison used to be, and life sentences were life... I think things would be very different.

[Abz]

Ok so I have generalised a bit with every crime, I should have put violent crime. Apologies.

 

The problem IMO is the whole civil rights thing. IMO if you wave the law, you wave your civil rights. If prison was more like prison used to be, and life sentences were life... I think things would be very different.

Totally agree with you Scott

[Dave17]

Ok so I have generalised a bit with every crime, I should have put violent crime. Apologies.

 

The problem IMO is the whole civil rights thing. IMO if you wave the law, you wave your civil rights. If prison was more like prison used to be, and life sentences were life... I think things would be very different.

 

Agreed! Civil rights and human rights cripple a system that could be quite effective imo. Oh and also the 15 million different appeal courts you can go to and try and overturn a conviction.

[n boost]

Sounds fair enough............and why should we give a fcuk about people who do awful crimes like these!

[S44M KT]

why should we give a fcuk about people who do awful crimes like these!

[Ian C]

Do you watch movies where the good guy always wins? Superman, Batman, Spiderman etc. It's a load of bull. In the real world the bad guys will always win because they'll always stoop lower than the good guy.

 

 

This is why I'm a big fan of The Punisher

[Meko]

Say a loved one of yours is Abused/Raped/Murdered etc... Would u rather that the person was "punished"? or just "reformed"

 

surely you would want both...

 

 

 

can i go for 'punished and left deformed'?

[hogmaw]

How can you say that... If it was you that was the victim you would certainly change your tune. and pretty damn quick! I for one believe that if a person PURPOSELY inflicts pain or suffering on another person they deserve to have exactly the same back!

 

You don't know me so how can you say that? As a matter of fact I have been stabbed, and the lad got sent down. It has never occured to me that someone should hold him down and stab him back! How utterly ridiculous!!!

 

Let's say someone was raped, for example.

 

Who's going to step forward and bugger the attacker? Anyone?

[ozz]

Would anyone happily abuse/rape/murder someone in revenge? If you would, what does that say about you? My initial thought would be if someone hurt someone close to me I would go nuts but if our justice system boiled down to 'eye for an eye' where would civilisation end up. What if you get the wrong person? What if they are mentally ill? I'd like to think our level of barbarity is linked to our level of civilisation.

 

Perhaps I'm soft, but if humanity wants to grow and better ourselves and our relationships with others to the advancement of civilisation we need to move away from emotive, violent, barbaric responses to violent acts.

[TonyP]

 

Who's going to step forward and bugger the attacker? Anyone?

 

I'll do it. With a cactus.

[stevie_b]

You don't know me so how can you say that? As a matter of fact I have been stabbed, and the lad got sent down. It has never occured to me that someone should hold him down and stab him back! How utterly ridiculous!!!

 

Let's say someone was raped, for example.

 

Who's going to step forward and bugger the attacker? Anyone?

 

Good post.

[tbourner]

Agreed! Civil rights and human rights cripple a system that could be quite effective imo.

Same as when someone breaks into your house, you have to sit back and phone the police and hope they turn up in time, and also risk being beaten up or killed because sorting out the criminals your own way is not allowed.

 

Would anyone happily abuse/rape/murder someone in revenge? If you would, what does that say about you?

What's the difference between that and putting them away? would you happily detain a rapist in your basement for 15 years and just give them food and minimal exercise? I don't necessarily want to carry out the act myself but I'd feel better knowing they would feel exactly the same pain that they've caused.

 

if our justice system boiled down to 'eye for an eye' where would civilisation end up. What if you get the wrong person? What if they are mentally ill?

I think that's the issue, the punishments aren't strong enough because of fear of getting it wrong!!

If we could prove INTENT (not guilt) then the punishment should fit the intention to commit a crime. I'm not talking thought police or Minority Report but after a crime is commited if it was manslaughter (for example) it was an accident and should not be punished (what good is it supposed to do), but if it was rape or something they should have ever increasing size drill bits rammed up their crapper on full speed!

[Tannhauser]

Every single type of crime is on the increase, has been for years. You might see a small decline from one year to the next, but the overall trend is that it is increasing. If one year a profile is down 1% the next year its up 3%.

 

Ok so I have generalised a bit with every crime, I should have put violent crime. Apologies.

 

The perception that crime in general is increasing is shared by two-thirds of the population:

 

Despite the falls in BCS crime since 1995 and more people being confident in the police and CJS, around two in three people believe that crime nationally has increased in the last two years.

 

(see second pdf link)

 

The 2006 paper from King's College London gives a nice synopsis of the difficulties in collecting data on violent crime. It's worth a read:

 

Link

 

As they point out:

 

There are systematic pressures for the reporting of these statistics in the worst possible light. No newspaper will lead with headlines about falling violent crime when their competitors offer stories about soaring violence. ..... No opposition will resist blaming the government for failing to get to grips with violence, and will make as much political capital as they can about upward trends. The message given to the public is that violence is indeed on the increase. The reality is more complicated.

 

The report explains that there are good reasons for trusting the BCS (British Crime Survey) statistics, as unlike police statistics, these (a) include unreported crime and (b) have used more consistent methods of gathering and scoring information.

 

A few summaries, for the period 1995-2005:

 

The BCS shows a fall in violent crime since 1995 with a levelling out in the last three years.

 

The nature of incidents has changed over this period, with the fall in violence between those known to each other of particular note.

 

Alcohol appears to be an increasingly important element in violent incidents.

 

Overall, levels of reporting of violent crime to the police have been stable, though the reporting rate for domestic violence is rising.

 

How about other types of crime? Take a look "]here (trend, as of 2007-8)

 

Long-term trends show that BCS crime rose steadily in the decade from 1981, and continued to rise during the early 1990s, peaking in 1995. Since then it has fallen, making 1995 a significant turning point in levels of BCS crime.

• Since peaking in 1995, BCS crime has fallen by 48 per cent, representing over nine million fewer crimes. Both BCS overall crime and the risk of victimisation are now at their lowest ever levels since the first BCS results in 1981.

• BCS domestic burglaries and vehicle-related thefts have fallen by over a half (59% and 66% respectively), violent crime by 48 per cent and vandalism by 20 per cent since 1995.

[ozz]

What's the difference between that and putting them away? would you happily detain a rapist in your basement for 15 years and just give them food and minimal exercise? I don't necessarily want to carry out the act myself but I'd feel better knowing they would feel exactly the same pain that they've caused.

 

Personnally I think there is a huge difference between locking someone up so they have a chance to learn, reflect and reform (niaive maybe...) and carrying out a violent act on that person.

[Porky1978]

Saw this earlier today and did initially question it until reading a few more news reports.

 

Very brutal, but they deserve it, along with some time in prison. The sick bastards that did that to the poor woman don't deserve any compassion IMO.

 

Whatever you do Homer, don't sit on the fence mate!!

[Scott]

The perception that crime in general is increasing is shared by two-thirds of the population:

 

 

 

(see second pdf link)

 

The 2006 paper from King's College London gives a nice synopsis of the difficulties in collecting data on violent crime. It's worth a read:

 

Link

 

As they point out:

 

 

 

The report explains that there are good reasons for trusting the BCS (British Crime Survey) statistics, as unlike police statistics, these (a) include unreported crime and (b) have used more consistent methods of gathering and scoring information.

 

A few summaries, for the period 1995-2005:

 

 

 

How about other types of crime? Take a look "]here (trend, as of 2007-8)

 

2006 Increase

 

6% Increase in Violent Crime in 2005, overall drop by 3% in all crime

 

14% Increase in 2004

 

I could go on, but I just go by what I read. It appears that the home office have contrasting reviews.

[Meko]

You don't know me so how can you say that? As a matter of fact I have been stabbed, and the lad got sent down. It has never occured to me that someone should hold him down and stab him back! How utterly ridiculous!!!

 

Let's say someone was raped, for example.

 

Who's going to step forward and bugger the attacker? Anyone?

 

 

http://www.funaha.com/images/anal-rape.jpg

[Max Headroom]

The perception that crime in general is increasing is shared by two-thirds of the population:

 

 

 

(see second pdf link)

 

The 2006 paper from King's College London gives a nice synopsis of the difficulties in collecting data on violent crime. It's worth a read:

 

Link

 

As they point out:

 

 

 

The report explains that there are good reasons for trusting the BCS (British Crime Survey) statistics, as unlike police statistics, these (a) include unreported crime and (b) have used more consistent methods of gathering and scoring information.

 

A few summaries, for the period 1995-2005:

 

 

 

How about other types of crime? Take a look "]here (trend, as of 2007-8)

 

 

There are lies, damn lies and statistics!! Given the current governments love of smoke and mirrors I wouldn't believe anything they say.

 

The problem with the justice system is the Human Rights Act and its use by the criminal fraternity to protect themselves. Sod the human rights of the one over the many, if said individual signs away his rights by committing a crime. We forget that we had the death penalty not so long ago. Send the buggers to jail, if there are no jails, build more! There are lots of places to build them

[Tannhauser]

2006 Increase

 

6% Increase in Violent Crime in 2005, overall drop by 3% in all crime

 

14% Increase in 2004

 

I could go on, but I just go by what I read. It appears that the home office have contrasting reviews.

 

Contrasting reviews? Don't follow that.

 

The problem in 'going by what you read', in terms of news coverage, is outlined in my first quote. Take the Daily Mail article, for example. The eye grabbing headline is the police statistics, and the message that 'everything is always getting worse' is very much in line with their editorial policy. However, notice that the BCS survey is relegated to the last paragraph:

 

The Home Office also released figures from the British Crime Survey for the year to the end of September, which suggested overall crime fell two per cent, and violent crime fell by five per cen

 

So they could have written a headline: 'Violent Crime on the Way Down', especially given that people who make their living studying this stuff say that there is good reason to give a lot of weight to the BCS figures.