I nave seen the future ....Its AEM

[Alex]

My fear is that I may encounter 'hidden' or 'obscure' ways to access certain supra-specific functions, perhaps left as a way for the dealers to have an edge, make money after the sale, you know what I mean, don't you

 

Why on earth would AEM do that? They don't make any money out of the tuning of the boxes.

 

And to limit the features in a sneaky fashion would be found out and mean they lost out in sales.

 

At least with a MoTeC you know you have to pay for additional features to be unlocked, but that fact is never hidden.

[TLicense]

I hear what your saying.

I've found that AEM aren't the best at conveying instructions (a quick glance at the manual will show you that!) it's not that they're hiding anything but more they are just inept at telling you in the most logical way what it is you need to do! The manual is a nightmare to read, but to understand the software, read you must!! (and more importantly understand)

Saying that, everything is pretty much documented nowadays and it seems to work well. Sure there were some bugs in the earlier versions of the software but these seem to have been largely ironed out of late (touching wood!)

The few issues where options had been left out by default of the fully customisable menu's, again didn't seem to be due to any underhandedness but more just a function of finding out what options needed to be on the menu's by default and what didn't. As I said it's fully customisable so it was just a case of adding what you wanted onto a menu. Again though this seems to have been sorted.

If it will help I'll post my current map this evening, you can download the software + manual from the AEM site, and have a play with what is a REAL working map for a near stock (engine and fuelling wise) J-spec. Converting this map for a UK spec is a little involved but I could explain how to do it. No big problems.

Hope that helps,

 

Tony

[JohnA]

Why on earth would AEM do that? They don't make any money out of the tuning of the boxes.

 

And to limit the features in a sneaky fashion would be found out and mean they lost out in sales.

 

I said that it is a 'fear' of mine mate, not a fact.

 

Just like a dream, only less real.

[carl0s]

As I mentioned before John, PNP refers to the wiring NOT the mapping.

NO ecu will do what your asking it to do, because each engine is slightly different.

 

I personally think that's bollocks. Did the Toyota engineers on the factory line 'fine tune' every ECU that was fitted? Nope. It's programmed the right way for that model of car and it works. The bottom line here is that AEM are providing a half-programmed ECU. They could easily provide a map for UK MKIV TT's, USA MKIV TT's & NA's etc etc but obviously it's not something they're willing to spend the money on doing.

 

which is fair enough, bearing in mind the efforts involved, but to have a 'programmable' ECU mimmic an OEM ecu is certainly not impossible. It might be expensive for them to do, but that's the only reason fully working maps aren't available. IMO it has nothing to do with 'no two engines being alike'

[Nic]

Did the Toyota engineers on the factory line 'fine tune' every ECU that was fitted? Nope. It's programmed the right way for that model of car and it works.

 

The stock ECU 'fine tunes' itself, as it has the ability to learn from the information it receives from the many sensors and using this info adapt the mapping to pre-set parameters. There will be certain tollerances that Toyota will build an engine to and the ECU programming will take these into consideration.

 

Don't know the AEM so can't comment on this.

[carl0s]

The stock ECU has the ability to learn from the information it receives from the many sensors and using this info adapt the mapping to pre-set parameters.

 

Don't know the AEM so can't comment on this.

 

 

yeah I was considering adding that perhaps the AEM is inferior in this way. Presumably it is able to retard timing upon knock detection and things like that? surely..?

[Nic]

IMO it has nothing to do with 'no two engines being alike'

 

We are also taking about built engines that may have different internals, exhaust, fueling parts etc. These engines will also have been 'used' in most case, so there is different levels of wear to take into account, etc. Tony is right no 2 engines will be the same, especially highly modified ones.

[carl0s]

erm, yeah, I understand that. But I would expect a 'BASE MAP' or 'STANDARD MAP' to essentially be able to run a stock car. You take out your Toyota ECU, you plug in the AEM with it's Toyota-OEM-mimmick-basemap, and you go from there. Plug in the AEM in place of the OEM box and it should work the same. I don't see that as impossible and it somehow seems kind of like a logical starting point.

[Guest Usmann A]

The whole point of fitting a Aftermakrekt EMS is too gain controls over all inputs/outputs. like MAP sensors ,etc so then adjustments would be made anyway ...

 

No one is saying AEM is better than OEM ecu on a stock car? why would you put AEM on one in the first place if your BPU? or if you plan on going further, save yourself headache and get it when you NEED it!

 

 

Nothin beats stock ecu for hybrid/bpu levels, thats why AEM never went that far as to make proper basemaps fully tailored for BPU(without tweaking), as its really a APU mod.

Like you say its time,money and extra hassle.

 

LOL, AEM can do alot of things guys, you shoud take a look at the software ..

 

edit, really makes me laugh when people think that AEM would miss out such a important feature to counteract knock, when nearly all EMS have this.

[Nic]

The F-con comes loaded with different base maps, but this can then only be fine tuned by selected pro HKS dealer. I guess this is mainly for safety reasons, to ensure that the mapping is done correctly by an approved tuner who knows what they are doing and so a car isn't just run on a base map which could be potentially dangerous.

[carl0s]

well I didn't really think the AEM would not have a knock-sensor input and be able to retard timing. It was a reference to the point of OEM / AEM ECU's ability to work with sensors and make adjustments within defined parameters.

 

so... I still think there's a simple point that's being overlooked... Given proper programming, could the AEM mimmick the OEM unit. I beleive the answer would be Yes, and I still believe this would be a better starting point for someone swapping out their stock ECU for an AEM, and then going onto tuning it from there.

[TLicense]

I understand what your saying Carlos. It is entirely possible to make the AEM run as if it were stock, IF your car was stock. Most cars have been modified by the time any third party EMS is introduced and such it requires these mods to be taken into account.

I kind of agree with what Ali has said, in so much as AEM haven't bothered to provide really pucka base-maps for stock cars, as they probably just don't have much need/requests for them. With that said though, for the few people (myself included) that are BPU and use the AEM a workable basemap would be much appreciated. (Although I very much doubt I would ever get one, without shelling out large amounts of cash!)

[carl0s]

well I'm reading this thread and it's making me want to buy one, just to have something to play with!! Wow just imagine all that control and what not. So what if I don't need one, looks really interesting, but alas as you say my car would run like a peice of shit if I just installed it with a base map.

 

see the thing is, there's something that REALLY pisses me off about my car, and it's the programming of the autobox.

 

I want it to change to third/fourth sooner/earlier when i'm feathering (and I mean feathering!) the throttle. Partly because of the noise (RSR, no cats), but mostly 'cause it's my "economode" driving.

 

And secondly the box will not kick down to 1st gear above ~34mph, which results in piss poor acceleration. It's actually quicker to hit the brakes, slow to 30, then floor it, than it is to just floor it from 40mph.

 

This is just one example. Then we have traction control, which I understand isn't too great in the AEM yet, but there's potential there..

 

The ECU in a car like the Supra controls litterally EVERYTHING, and some of you guys are basically saying that if we don't have a big fuckoff T67 turbo and bored-out cylinders, then we have no use for the AEM.

[TLicense]

well I'm reading this thread and it's making me want to buy one, just to have something to play with!! Wow just imagine all that control and what not. So what if I don't need one, looks really interesting, but alas as you say my car would run like a peice of shit if I just installed it with a base map.

 

The ECU in a car like the Supra controls litterally EVERYTHING, and some of you guys are basically saying that if we don't have a big fuckoff T67 turbo and bored-out cylinders, then we have no use for the AEM.

 

 

That's partly why I have one on my BPU car. Because I like to "tinker" as my girlfriend puts it.

I see why people say you won't need any aftermarket fully programmable ecu on anything but a APU car, but try to disregard the money side of things. It should be (and IMHO is) capable of controlling a stock car as well as the stock ECU, with tuning.

The unfortunate thing is that it does require tuning for a stock car, because the base-maps are not 100%, when it is perfectly possible for them to be so. It's just improbable that AEM are willing to splash out the sort of cash to develop the basemaps that each of the manufacturer's that they can supply aftermarket EMS's for.

[carl0s]

the base-maps are not 100%, when it is perfectly possible for them to be so. It's just improbable that AEM are willing to splash out the sort of cash to develop the basemaps

 

That's exactly what I've been trying to say.

 

Have you had yours tuned by an expensive AEM-pro or did you spend the time and teach yourself?

[TLicense]

Let me tell you a little story..... lol

 

I bought a "basemap" from a guy on here. I thought it was going to match my set-up *exactly*. I gave it to JPS to install and tune (not a problem, as Leon was at the time running an AEM on his big HP car)

Unfortunately the map and my set-up were not so closely matched as I thought, so Leon struggled to map it (as it wasn't what he was expecting) after spending some time on it, he became aware that the cost (ie his hourly rate) was starting to mount up, so he stopped. He then handed it over to me. I knew nothing of engine mapping, so have had to learn completely from scratch.

I've not really adjusted much of what Leon gave me, as I'm not particularly confident, but it's fair to say, the car doesn't run silky smooth at all.

I'd love to get the car running right, but as I'm not able/willing to pay out the cash to get someone else to do it, it's just down to me to learn as much as I can and get in amongst it myself.

The problem with doing it like this, is nobody seems keen on giving prescriptive suggestions. The tuners don't because it's their lively-hood (fair enough) AEM don't want to, incase you feck it and come back to them saying you fecked my car and I'm going to sue you (which is understandable on their part) so it's just left to willing end user experts (like Blkmgk) who don't have enough time to sit down and do inch by inch through your car, and their 1000's of miles away anyway. Just the way it seems to be for me anyway.

[Matt Harwood]

And secondly the box will not kick down to 1st gear above ~34mph, which results in piss poor acceleration. It's actually quicker to hit the brakes, slow to 30, then floor it, than it is to just floor it from 40mph.

 

 

When I had an auto, I found the same thing, but IIRC, changing into 1st at this speed only gives you about 1krpm headroom before hitting the redline and needing to change up anyway.

It's not a limitation of the ECU, it's a limitation of the rev-limiter, (there for engine safety), and lack of gears on the autobox.

[TLicense]

That's exactly what I've been trying to say.

 

It's understandable why they're not though. Toyota would have spent millions developing the map for the 2JZGTE. AEM would have to match that, not ony for all of the Toyota engines they supply maps for, but also the Mazda's, Ford's, Mitsi's.......

[JohnA]

... nobody seems keen on giving prescriptive suggestions. The tuners don't because it's their lively-hood (fair enough) AEM don't want to, .....so it's just left to willing end user experts (like Blkmgk) who don't have enough time to sit down and do inch by inch through your car, and their 1000's of miles away anyway. ...

 

My sentiments exactly.

 

You can download a 'display' version of the AEM software from their site, install it and play a bit.

That way you'll see that the AEM does have the potential to control properly most (or all) of the functions that the stock ECU can --- plus a few more.

Those that it cannot do directly (say interface with Toyota's TC), it can do indirectly.

 

However, the key word here is 'potential'.

In order to realise this potential at BPU or stock you need a good base map, and that is not what you'll get for free.

IMO people will not provide one to you even for 'stock' use because there's money to made out of you once you've swapped the stock ECU.

I find the "no two engines are identical" argument a bit lame, frankly. AEM could have cared to post a handful of maps, for example one for US/UK spec stock, one for BPU (MAP sensor), one for JSpec. Times two, manual and auto. But where's the money in that?

Supras (to them) are a dead breed anyway, production has stopped long ago.

[TLicense]

LOL John, it's no display software mate, that's it.

 

No two engines are the same, it's true, but the ECU could cater for this, but it requires setting up. IIRC the basemaps don't have O2FB or knock control enabled. I'll check and let you know...

[JohnA]

LOL John, it's no display software mate, that's it....

There are no help files mate.

If that's the Full Monty, then it's no wonder nobody has got it running properly without paying extra for AEM-trained people to load a decent map ...

[Guest Usmann A]

if you know EMS systems already, then you can navigate ur self roughly, but now people understand that the layout is rather not so straight forward as other ecus.

 

It lets the user into depth as to define the value of 1 RAW, and play with its main "clock" so to speak.

 

The real fun is watching people with badky tuned Fuel maps trying to use 02FB and then wonder why the cars AFR oscillates ...

[JohnA]

"rough navigation" is not fun when you have an expensive 6cyl engine that even needs a heavy-duty long-reach crane to come out if things go pear-shaped. (let alone ship parts from the States or overpriced ripoff-UK)

 

Without the precise definition of the various units involved, it's like playing with fire --- hardly my expectations from a 'plug-and-play' EMS.

 

But hey, if everything was done properly (above board perhaps) then there wouldn't be a need to provide training courses for AEM dealers at the US, would there?

 

( I still believe that we could stick together and do this, it's not rocket science, just needs a methodical approach, time, luck and goodwill )

[Guest Usmann A]

my friend, im talking about understanding the software for guys that hav mapped motors before.

 

And yes rough navigation of optimal settings ie, ign,crank inj tables, fuel maps, and knock setting,can all be done even if your not a whiz at the software, and get the motor dialed up for driving. Like I say if you have experience with EMS before, then just logical thinking will get you through it.

 

 

 

Using special modifiers within the software can get your car running within a few good hours ...

 

Have fun,

[Jake]

Using special modifiers within the software can get your car running within a few good hours ...

Special modifiers? Could you explain that a little for us please, Ali?