Jake Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 On one of the M3 forums a chap's wheel fell off the car only 50 yards after he fitted some hubcentric spacers. Turns out that the ones he fitted weren't sutable for his car and this caused the spigot part of the spacer to break away from the backplate. Photo here Anyway, the guys on there are all claiming that the spigot part of a hubcentric spacer exists only to centre the wheel on the hub and has zero load bearing duties. Apparently I'm the only person who thought otherwise. So, I've done a bit of searching on here and found a couple of threads by our own CW which seem to support my argument.... Here and here and here Now I'm sure CW is correct but folks on the other forum are saying things like "How come Eibach sell flat (non=hubcentric) spacers then?" and "If the central ring was load bearing then why are many spigot rings used on after market wheels made of plastic?" I need a bit more evidence to support my claim than "it stands to reason" or "Some bloke called Chris on mkivsupra.net said so" Problem is I can't seem to find anywhere else that supports Chris' view on this. Anyone know where on the net I might something a little more official or technical looking than a post on here? (No offence intended to Chris at all, I think he's right, but I don't expect guys on another forum to hold Chris' opinion in the regard we do on here) cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieP Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 Ive used many wheels over the years that are not hubcentric, my current wheels are not hubcentric, never had a problem tbh. Did his wheel studs/bolts snap? maybe he over tightened them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted November 6, 2009 Author Share Posted November 6, 2009 No they came loose because, it seems, that he fitted a spacer with a 10mm deep hub recess onto an 11mm protruding hub. The spacer's ring then broke off which instantly made the wheel nuts 1mm looser. Full thread here, if anyone's interested.... http://forums.m3cutters.co.uk/showthread.php?t=7607 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieP Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 Scary stuff, must get round to getting some alloy spigot rings to be on the safe side, i fitted some plastic one a couple of weeks back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jevansio Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 My wheels came with alloy rings, the wheel is now a very hard push fit onto the hub, my old rings were plastic & I couldn't see how they could take any load due to them being a pretty relaxed fit (and made of platsic) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieP Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 My wheels came with alloy rings, the wheel is now a very hard push fit onto the hub, my old rings were plastic & I couldn't see how they could take any load due to them being a pretty relaxed fit (and made of platsic) Where did you buy the wheels mate? i'll see if they will sell me a set. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustGav Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 Chris's quote says it all for me... Makers often bore a big hole in aftermarket rims and use a ring to bring it down in size. Buy a rim that is made for the spigot size of the car, don't use adaptor rings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jevansio Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 Where did you buy the wheels mate? i'll see if they will sell me a set. Vivid Racing bud Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n boost Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 Wheelmania sell the metal rings as well.................paid £10 for 4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul mac Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 No they came loose because, it seems, that he fitted a spacer with a 10mm deep hub recess onto an 11mm protruding hub. The spacer's ring then broke off which instantly made the wheel nuts 1mm looser. bit confused here, so is this pointing to a 1mm gap where the alloy should bolt up to the wheel hub as this is where all the clamping force would be Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dnk Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 (edited) Wheel studs are meant to hold the wheel to the hub and not to take the vertical loads or weight of the car. Dont use the correct fitment wheels or metal spigot rings at your peril. I have a member on another club who's just nearly lost a front wheel on his na supra due to this. Plastic spigot rings are a waste of money so buy aluminium or steel ones and if not available in the size you need then get some made by an engineering company. The supra spigot diameter is 60.1 mm Edited November 6, 2009 by Dnk (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merckx Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 (edited) bit confused here, so is this pointing to a 1mm gap where the alloy should bolt up to the wheel hub as this is where all the clamping force would be Does Jake not mean that the spacer can only accomodate a maximum hub depth of 10mm before it bottoms out, with the hub on this car being 11mm it would mean that the spacer wouldn't fit flush against the bell of the brake disc. There would be a 1mm gap with the wheel bolts tightened which would result in the spacer being highly stressed and finally it broke to make the wheel loosen off by 1mm. The spacers with the integrated hub centric ring also appear to be be very poorly designed with there being very little metal between the bore and the centric ring. I think Chris is pointing to the fact that the hub centic rings quite often don't fit correctly, get lost and can be of a poor quality material. Edited November 6, 2009 by merckx (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustGav Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 Does Jake not mean that the spacer can only accomodate a maximum hub depth of 10mm before it bottoms out, with the hub on this car being 11mm it would mean that the spacer wouldn't fit flush against the bell of the brake disc. There would be a 1mm gap with the wheel bolts tightened which would result in the spacer being highly stressed and finally it broke to make the wheel loosen off by 1mm. That is how I read it as well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 The friction of the face between the alloy and the hub face is sufficient. The spigot is not required for load. Any force that would knock the wheel off center... once centered... would rip the alloy off regardless. My mate had the same problem with spacers for his BMW. He has a replica M3 and needed spacers to replicate the width. Had to make his own due to the spigot being 11mm. Most spacers only accommodate 10mm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveC Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 The friction of the face between the alloy and the hub face is sufficient. The spigot is not required for load. Any force that would knock the wheel off center... once centered... would rip the alloy off regardless... Some interesting reading here that says that the spigot should take the weight of the car and that the wheel nuts are just for holding the wheels on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 Some interesting reading here that says that the spigot should take the weight of the car and that the wheel nuts are just for holding the wheels on. I remember reading that a while ago. I have driven a car without spigot rings before, the judder through the steering wheel was ridiculous. Only as they were off center though. We can all agree to disagree. I don't think we will find anything concrete one way or the other. My experience tells me that they would be fine without the spigot's, as long as they are centered. The weight will be on the cone of the nuts and the friction of the mating faces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveC Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 My experience tells me that they would be fine without the spigot's, as long as they are centered. The weight will be on the cone of the nuts and the friction of the mating faces. If you didn't have the spigot rings, then all the weight of the car and the forces applied to the wheels would be totally relying on the wheel studs - and as the article says, the wheel studs weren't designed to take 'shear' stress. I personally certainly wouldn't risk not having correctly fitting spigots rings fitted, but ideally I'd prefer wheels that were machined to match the car in the first place - 60.1mm. Like you say, we can all agree to disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted November 6, 2009 Author Share Posted November 6, 2009 We can all agree to disagree. I don't think we will find anything concrete one way or the other. Oh right. So you've unilaterally declared my thread closed then. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 If you didn't have the spigot rings, then all the weight of the car and the forces applied to the wheels would be totally relying on the wheel studs - and as the article says, the wheel studs weren't designed to take 'shear' stress. I personally certainly wouldn't risk not having correctly fitting spigots rings fitted, but ideally I'd prefer wheels that were machined to match the car in the first place - 60.1mm. Like you say, we can all agree to disagree. Think of how a clutch works. There are no bolts holding the plates together, only pressure creating the friction. The shear strength of one of those studs is frightening when on its own, let alone with 5 of them. The tensile strength of them is most important though as that is what creates the pressure between the face of the hub and the face of the wheel. It isn't the studs holding the wheel in place vertically, if they become loose it will be though... thats when you get a problem If the spigot was taking the load it would be the full depth of the alloy. In my mind the design is created for centering, hence the small width. Oh right. So you've unilaterally declared my thread closed then. Cheers No, just don't agree but can't prove myself right or wrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveC Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 Think of how a clutch works. There are no bolts holding the plates together, only pressure creating the friction. On a clutch there aren't lateral forces - assuming the clutch and flywheel are correctly in balance. If the spigot was taking the load it would be the full depth of the alloy. In my mind the design is created for centering, hence the small width. The spigot bit that sticks out from hub itself is only a few mm deep, that's why most spigot rings are only around 10mm deep. Some sellers of alloy wheels do say that the spigot rings aren't really necessary and are only for wheel centring, but I don't buy that myself. I don't think they're that bothered if your car handles like sh*t, tyres catch the wheel arches, or if the wheels studs shear off! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieP Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 Ive done track days and drag racing with no spigots in place, im not saying its right, maybe ive been lucky, When i bought my advans they didnt come with any, when i asked Paul he said not to bother, he dont run them on his car, the fact is spigot rings are so cheap you may aswell fit them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 The spigot bit that sticks out from hub itself is only a few mm deep, that's why most spigot rings are only around 10mm deep. Forget about the spigot rings & aftermarket alloys for a second and just think about the stock spigot & stock alloys. If they were designed to hold the weight of the car, they would be the full width that the alloy could accommodate. They aren't, as they are only for centering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 (edited) If they were designed to hold the weight of the car, they would be the full width that the alloy could accommodate. They aren't, as they are only for centering. Thats twice you've asserted that, but I don't think thats correct. I can't back it up with numbers, but my feel is that if the wheel is attached firmly via bolts to the hub, it doesn't need a full length spigot to offer full support. I'm trying to think of how the extra metal would help, and I can't come up with anything - it's sat on that thick and strong spigot ridge. If anything, a full length spigot ridge might fret or stress fracture, as it is providing a long lever for the wheels to work with - the slightest imbalance is suddenly magnified and eventually breaks the full-length spigot off the hub. It's kind of acting like a metal dowell rather than a stud/bolt/spindle... Edited November 6, 2009 by Ian C (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garethr Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 My experience tells me that Toyota probably know what they're doing when it comes to mounting wheels on hubs... Why would you risk it for the sake of saving a few quid on spigot rings? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 Thats twice you've asserted that, but I don't think thats correct. I can't back it up with numbers, but my feel is that if the wheel is attached firmly via bolts to the hub, it doesn't need a full length spigot to offer full support. I'm trying to think of how the extra metal would help, and I can't come up with anything - it's sat on that thick and strong spigot ridge. If anything, a full length spigot ridge might fret or stress fracture, as it is providing a long lever for the wheels to work with - the slightest imbalance is suddenly magnified and eventually breaks the full-length spigot off the hub. It's kind of acting like a metal dowell rather than a stud/bolt/spindle... Sorry, i'm just typing fast as I am watching a movie. I don't mean to sound like what I am saying is the be-all and end-all. It IS just my opinion. I understand the force of friction on the hub with the wheel. I rely on frictional forces myself in work, machining some pretty big bits of material with quite heavy cuts. I exhert a LOT of force onto the material yet the only thing holding the material concentric to the table is friction. I only use 1 3/4" stud at any one time and i don't use cone shaped nuts to hold it in place. The sort of force it would take to move the face of the wheel along the hub would snap the wheel before it budged. It would certainly take out the bearing and probably some other bits and bobs. Once that wheel is centered and the cone shaped nuts are in place & tight, IMO it aint going nowhere. As you no doubt know, the 5 studs holding the wheel on aren't the weak point of the whole corner assembly. In accidents where the wheels come off its normally the whole hub assembly that goes with it. The only time i have noticed anything other than that is due to overtightening of the nuts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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