Serving soldier leads anti-war march. Coward or hero?

[TonyP]

Story here

 

What the hell is going on? He's refusing to go back to Afganistan and is, rightly so imo, being court marshalled.

 

Now, I don't blame him for not wanting to go. I sure as hell wouldn't but he's a soldier. It's his job ffs!

[Kieran]

Now, I don't blame him for not wanting to go. I sure as hell wouldn't but he's a soldier. It's his job ffs!

 

Exactly that, he wasn't forced to sign up and must realise it's part of his job he's chosen, the throbber.

 

Somebody on an Army forum has taken the time to write an 'open letter' to him, it's pretty long but is spot on and well worth the read:

 

http://www.arrse.co.uk/Forums/viewtopic/t=136239.html

[TonyP]

Exactly that, he wasn't forced to sign up and must realise it's part of his job he's chosen, the throbber.

 

Somebody on an Army forum has taken the time to write an 'open letter' to him, it's pretty long but is spot on and well worth the read:

 

http://www.arrse.co.uk/Forums/viewtopic/t=136239.html

 

Interesting read. I know that there are several members of the armed services on this forum. I'd be very interested to hear their opinion on this.

[stevie_b]

That chap can write! I share his opinion, even before I read his open letter. I think it opens a large and nasty can of worms if junior soldiers refuse to be deployed. Soldiers need to be able to trust those who serve around them whilst Terry Taliban is taking pot-shots at them.

 

Easy for me to say: I'm not in the forces, and the closest I'm likely to get to Helmand is a night out in Slough.

[marbleapple]

If I didn't want to do law I shouldn't work in a law firm.

 

If he isn't willing to fight he shouldn't be in the army.

 

Simple.

[Kieran]

Interesting read. I know that there are several members of the armed services on this forum. I'd be very interested to hear their opinion on this.

 

I'll be one of them in a couple of weeks, all going to plan.

[Dave]

maybe he got scared on his first tour or saw mates get blown up has he said why he doesnt want to return my mate was in the army hes been to bosnia and iraq he said i sh%t myself on every op but its my job .

imagine if all the soldiers in ww2 had taken this attitude we would all be speaking german.

[dangerous brain]

If I didn't want to do law I shouldn't work in a law firm.

 

If he isn't willing to fight he shouldn't be in the army.

 

Simple.

 

See its not as cut and dry as that. I joined the RAF when I was 16 and spent many a month in active conflict areas. If I'm honest I joined up at the tail end of the cold war and didn't really expect any action but wasn't averse to the thought. I volunteered for Northern Ireland at the height of the troubles, I was one of the first RAF into the former yugoslavia, I volunteered for but missed out on sierra leone (that was a proper sh*tter of a job), again missed out on Kosovo, but when Afghanistan and Iraq went down I proper didn't want to go. The risks in afghan and iraq were actually lower than the other jobs so it definitely isn't a fear thing.

 

As far as I feel its a perception thing. Lets put this in perspective, the day I was sat in Kuwait on the border waiting to invade Iraq the polls were saying that 60% of the British public were against the idea. Given that this country is now being run by a dictator that has not been voted into power by any recognisable lawful group I find the legality of the whole thing at best a sham. Hence my perspective of this tragic mess is that we as a nation should not be involved in Iraq.

 

Afghanistan is a different story. The lines are clouded a bit on this point and it depends on what you believe as to wether or not its any more legal an intervention than Iraq. If you think that the American spin machine is inventing an enemy within Afghanistan and that its actually not the internationally mobile terrorist group its purported to be then your faith in that conquest would also be toppled. Myself I am a tad dubious about the extent of Al-qaeda and its actual location in Afghanistan is IMO dreadfully over exaggerated. If we haven't managed to nail any of them down in the 7 or more years we've been there then either we are incompetent or they don't exist in the numbers that the spin machine says they do.

 

Just because you are a serving member of an armed force does not mean you are not entitled to your opinion. FWIW should you have that opinion then leaving the force is your best option which is what I did. That said in this day and age of "rights" etc why the f*ck should you have to give up a very promising career just because you are being forced into a conflict that is at best arguably illegal??

[marbleapple]

Just because you are a serving member of an armed force does not mean you are not entitled to your opinion. FWIW should you have that opinion then leaving the force is your best option which is what I did.

 

Well I think your comment above is really my view of it too.

 

You are paid to do a job and you should do it. It is not your job to think. The charge of the light brigade summed it nicely for a soldier... "mine is not to reason why, mine is but to do and die" - My point is that if you join the army you do as you are instructed irrespective of you personal opinions on the matter. It works just the same with me when I am fighting (metaphorically) on a side that I do not agree with. It is not my job to think but to do as I am instructed.

 

I respect your decision to quit and your reasons for it but I do not respect a man who does not agree but at the same time is to spineless too resign and instead takes the route of causing disharmony from the inside.

 

 

That said in this day and age of "rights" etc why the f*ck should you have to give up a very promising career just because you are being forced into a conflict that is at best arguably illegal??

 

You could say the same with every career though. I represent client's who's arguments I don't agree with but my opinion is irrelevant. I have a job and I have to do it. If I don't like it then I leave but I can't have my cake and eat it.

 

People have opinions and I respect that but I also feel that people know what they are getting in to. You join the army to fight and really it is pretty irrelevant I suspect when you are on the front line whether the reason for the fight it right or wrong, just do the job and be proud of yourself for doing it well.

 

 

Oh and for the record, I suspect that guy really doesn't have much of a career left now does he.

[Abz]

Recently a lot of soldiers have been killed in Afghan, maybe he saw close colleagues go down brutally. Maybe he thinks the child he killed while shooting at house which intell said was dangerous was actually a family home. Although it's his job, everybody also has the right to leave their job. His had enough just like me and you might have working for a company?

 

Personally if after 7 years they still can not beat a bunch of guys trained by the Americans, then they should get out. This is Bush's mess, leave him to sort it out.

[marbleapple]

everybody also has the right to leave their job. His had enough just like me and you might have working for a company?

 

Of course he has the right to leave.... thats the problem... he won't

[Kieran]

Although it's his job, everybody also has the right to leave their job.

 

Of course he has the right to leave if he doesn't fancy it any more, but only after he's man'ed-up, done the job he volunteered for and served his years notice.

 

He made the decision to go into the Army off his own back, as I have myself, knowing that things might be a bit unpleasant.

 

Going AWOL and leading an anti-war protest isn't the way to go about things.

[dangerous brain]

Well I think your comment above is really my view of it too.

 

You are paid to do a job and you should do it. It is not your job to think. The charge of the light brigade summed it nicely for a soldier... "mine is not to reason why, mine is but to do and die" - My point is that if you join the army you do as you are instructed irrespective of you personal opinions on the matter.

 

And thats how the likes of Gallipoli, and the utter waste of life that the charge of the light brigade was. Its d*ck heads like Cardigan that lead these fine soldiers ultimately to a pointless death that make my blood boil. People that don't think about what they are doing or why they are doing it get people killed. All I'll say is thank christ for sergeants that reign these kn*b ends in as much as they can.

 

 

You could say the same with every career though. I represent client's who's arguments I don't agree with but my opinion is irrelevant. I have a job and I have to do it. If I don't like it then I leave but I can't have my cake and eat it.

 

Thing with this is that you can quite easily take the same job as you do now with another company, short of joining the legion a career soldier is pretty buggered at getting the same job with another firm.

 

People have opinions and I respect that but I also feel that people know what they are getting in to. You join the army to fight and really it is pretty irrelevant I suspect when you are on the front line whether the reason for the fight it right or wrong, just do the job and be proud of yourself for doing it well.

 

And I suspect that is the exact reason that Hitlers german soldiers gave for gassing millions of jews, what Mugabe's men say about the atrocities they are committing on a daily basis. As a human being you are directly responsible for your own actions and if you believe they are wrong should you really carry them out?

 

Oh and for the record, I suspect that guy really doesn't have much of a career left now does he.

 

You are completely right on that score, his career is going one way only now so he may as well have left, but you have to consider the pension. If he hangs on in there for his full term he stands to still get that which is worth a hell of a lot of money in the long term. When I left I gave up the one big advantage that a service career has.

[grahamc]

What happens if this person, believes in being an integral part of the army that defends his nation, but has no belief in the lies that have been spun about this particular war? What should he do?

 

If your company (private, army, etc) is doing something completely wrong and you think that quitting is the best answer, IMHO you are WRONG!! To stand up and bring attention to it in this manner, is probably his last option!

 

I go for HERO, but I personally dont believe the lies told to get this war!

[supra steveo]

If he isn't willing to fight he shouldn't be in the army.

 

Simple.

damn right! he takes the queens cash he should do what he is told , if he didnt want to fight or wanted a 9 till 5 job he should not of signed up

[Mike_Mac]

@ Dangerous Brain - I see the point that you're trying to make, but don't agree, at all, with how you're making it. To imply that everyone in the military hierarchy is a "Knob End" in general terms is utter crap. There are good and bad officers, just as there are good and bad SNCOs and good and bad ORs (or politicians for that matter). I'd say across the board there are far more of the former than the latter and it takes good people at all levels to make the armed forces work.

 

The key thing about our military is not that they don't think - there is a lot of thought in the military currently about the validity of our recent military actions, or otherwise.

 

The key thing is that they keep those views within the military, because when a country's armed forces start interfering with politics it sets a dangerous precedent.

 

Our military is deployed on the orders of an elected body politic. At the strategic level it is the British legal system, throught he AG etc, that should decide whether a course of action is legitimate or not. It is not the place of anyone in the armed forces to question orders passed down from that level; certainly not when you're at LCpl Glenton's level anyway. That is for people like CDS, CGS etc to raise at the correct level, within the law and the chain of command.

 

The root of this whole incident is not the legality of the war in Iraq, or Afghanistan. Rather it is that this individual has chosen to make a political statement ONLY after he is brought back for Court Martial after TWO YEARS on the run. Funny how he's never said a thing until then isn't it?

 

IMO he is a little scrote who is trying to weasel his way out of a deserved punishment by latching onto the 'Stop the War' argument. If he had genuine reservations about serving in the Middle-East then he could have submitted his notice and left - end of. On becoming a civilian he would then have been free to express any views he liked.

[ivan]

My opinion - he should be in nick right now awaiting court martial, not out free to march.

[SupraAyf]

My opinion - he should be in nick right now awaiting court martial, not out free to march.

 

That sums it up for me too Ken!!

[dangerous brain]

@ Dangerous Brain - I see the point that you're trying to make, but don't agree, at all, with how you're making it. To imply that everyone in the military hierarchy is a "Knob End" in general terms is utter crap. There are good and bad officers, just as there are good and bad SNCOs and good and bad ORs (or politicians for that matter). I'd say across the board there are far more of the former than the latter and it takes good people at all levels to make the armed forces work.

 

 

I didn't mean to imply that all of the upper military heirarchy are knob ends, I was reacting to the opinions being raised that soldiers should blindly follow all orders going, and in specific the example of the charge of the light brigade being given as an example of what should be done was my main reaction. Face it Cardigan was a callous unfeeling man that left the battlefield after massacring his men and went for tea and tiffin on his yacht so he fits into the knob end category quite nicely.

 

I also firmly dislike the opinion that because you've taken the queens shilling your life is forfeit to the whims of the crown, no matter who you are no-one has the right to own your life.

 

Looking into it a bit more I would actually tend to agree that this particular guy is bandstanding for whatever reason. Being on the run for 2 years is obviously not the actions of an intelligent thinking man/conscientious objector.

 

The point I am trying to make is that a soldier should have the basic rights afforded to any other human being. Its a very idealistic view and I as a realist know its not actually possible in practice. Doesn't stop it from annoying me and it particularly rankles that if you do object and leave you lose your pension. Thats cost me alot of money and security in my old age so I'm bound to be a bit sensitive about it.

[Pete]

A friend of mine was in the RAF as an engine technician for Tornados etc.

They decided to send him to Iraq with a gun to help out the ground forces. I think it's pretty bad to send a man with family out of his chosen career in relative safety and then throw him into a scenario like that. He left and now runs our IT engineering dept.

[Shadow Beast]

There are quite a few good arguments on here having read through this, couple of points i would like to bring up:-

 

1. The guy joined up to defend Queen and country, that means you go where told whether you agree or not. At his rank he is not in the position to say if he wants to go or not,(he can but no one will listen) if he did not want to go then he should of signed off.

 

2. He went AWOL, that in itself is a military crime, he should of been jailed from the outset. He can protest as much as he likes once kicked out.

 

3. You do get basic rights when you join but........... when it comes to war and fighting you go end of (that's what you signed up for).

 

4. Surely your pension is only lost if you go AWOL or do less than the required time or get discharged dishonorably?

 

All IMO of course

 

Richie

[staples230uk]

Interesting read. I know that there are several members of the armed services on this forum. I'd be very interested to hear their opinion on this.

 

I think this guy should have the book thrown at him, as many people before me have said....He signed up for this. I signed up knowing full well there is a possibility of going to somewhere hostile. But you just man up and go. Granted am in the RAF so pretty much I only see Kandahar. But the guys in the army who are on the front line do a sterling job and it's a shame to see this guy weeding out on his fellow army lads!! Rant done lol!!

[Abz]

Some good points, though like mentioned he should not have gone missing for 2 years!

 

Everyone has rights at the end of the day, if the fella thinks his going into a death trap (apologises lads but sometimes it seems like it) and he thinks what he is doing wrong then he should have left the army straight.

[supra steveo]

personally i dont think anyone would want this little runt next to them while taking some incoming , he isnt fit for service so get rid of him

[dangerous brain]

 

 

4. Surely your pension is only lost if you go AWOL or do less than the required time or get discharged dishonorably?

 

 

 

Richie

 

Oh yeah you get a portion of the pension that you served for from age 65 as opposed to a full pension from age 40 an income of approx £8k a year for 25 years with an increase to about 14-15k with incremental increases which you don't get by leaving early. Leaving early you get whatever the rate was when you left which in 30 years time is going to be a bit rough considering the fact that when you register for your military pension you get that instead of your standard pension. All in all if the state pension stays on the same system with incremental increases it will add up pretty much to the same. So after 16 years of service with 7 medals for various conflicts you end up drawing the same pension as the slob that sat on benefits all his life having contributed nothing to the world bar 10 illegitimate kids.

 

FWIW the RAF guy that gets sent to Kandahar is no more deserved of his right to expect to not find himself in a war zone than an infantryman. Statistics show especially in support helicopter that you are more likely to end up in a war zone as a RAF technician than an infantryman, allthough with the increased commitments and decreasing resources that stat is starting to swing back. Fair enough I have to admit that at 16 when I joined up I didn't envisage a career of traipsing through one conflict zone after another but I did volunteer for a first line RAF helicopter unit after my apprenticeship at a more informed age of 19 so you kind of expect it from that point. I will say that you expect your government to be just and legal about the places they send you and honestly I think the legality side of Iraq is at best dubious. Its a fact that the BS that Colin Powell fed the world that day was utter tripe. You could see that those pictures he showed were a load of old nads. They had absolutely no evidence of WOMD whatsoever and were in fact proven to the world utterly wrong, and thats a fact not a made up opinion. On the day the war kicked off over 60% of the population was against it, that also is fact. A war under the premise of miss-information and with over half the countries opinion stacked against it, that war starts to look a little shaky in the legal dept. Thats not to mention the dodgy stuff that went on with the guy that wrote the misinformation.

 

I have a particular dislike for the regime thats running this country right now. I feel they think they transcend all common law, or applicability of values.