Bosch 044 fuel pump bhp limit?

[dive_popo]

The figure 180 is somthing that is asumed, you saying people get 600 hp at 1.3 bar with bigger exhaust only?

 

Well ill just rest my case

 

 

---

I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=57.721118,12.011299

 

well: exhaust, turbo, fuel kit, intercooler and ecu not sure about cams ...

 

a friend of mine hit 958 bhp only by adding the cams to everything that I mentioned...

 

 

 

edit: and a good clutch

Edited September 22, 2011 by dive_popo (see edit history)

[Scott]

The figure 180 is somthing that is asumed, you saying people get 600 hp at 1.3 bar with bigger exhaust only?

 

Well ill just rest my case

 

The 180 figure is what I remember it being, call it an educated guess if you like, it will be around that sort of level though. I even gave 200hp as a reference as the stock N/A is 220 and of course with an intercooler and less compression in there it's going to make less power as an N/A.

 

1.3bar with no headwork. The only way the VE would change is if something in the head changed. If the valves, cams and ports are all stock then the maximum potential VE will remain constant. In order to have the VE at 100% you would probably need to remove the manifold alltogether so that there was next to no vac pressure (As an N/A the suction from the pistons pulling in the air, and the restriction from the manifold and pipework, would mean the air going into the chamber would be under a slight vacuum).

 

There are loads of supras over 600hp running nowhere near 2bar of boost. I think the going rate for around 600hp is 1.5bar. The bigger turbos will coast 600hp though, I wouldn't be surprised to see a few of the bigger ones easily cracking 600hp at 1.0bar of boost.

 

Have a look around at the various projects and you will see what figures are achieved and at what boost levels. For the most part the cams is the only thing that changes in the head until going onto serious modifications. I've upgraded my valve springs, retainers and cams. I'm looking for around 700hp at around 1.6-1.7 bar of boost.

[Hellstrom]

Very simplified you can say that the engine power resulting from the density of air in the engine intake. The density can be calculated by p / (R * T), ex. p = 100 000 Pa (1 bar), R = 287 J / kg * C (dry air) and T = 293.2 (20 degrees C) gives a density of 1.275 kg / m ^ 3. Increases the pressure to 200 kPa so increases the density to 2.551 kg / m ^ 3. If we say that the temperature also increases to 323.2 K (50 degrees C) is the density only 2.156 kg / m ^ 3.

 

If we have an engine with a displacement of 3 liters so suck on every other engine speed into 3 liters of air for filling is 100% (fill ratio of an engine is usually between 70 and 130%, lower in some situations). With a density of 2.156 kg / m ^ 3 this means that 3.23 grams of air per engine. This also means that 0.22 grams of gas can be combusted per engine speed (3.23 / 14.7) which frees up more than 9.46 kJ when the gasoline contains about 43 MJ / kg. Let's say the engine is running at 133.3 rev / s (8000 rpm), it means that the engine produces 1261 kJ / s, which is the same as 1261 kW. Only part of this effect is however available on the crankshaft, perhaps around 35%, ie 441 kW.

 

In this way one can calculate how much power an engine produces. In addition to pressure and temperature of the air, you realize that the motor fill factor and efficiency affect the results. How overcharge affects fill factor and efficiency are more complicated to calculate, it may be a rule dealing with simulation software. However, one can draw simple conclusions.

 

The efficiency can either rise or fall, with a gasoline engine, it is more likely to fall than rise. This is because the knock must be avoided and it is usually done by lowering the compression ratio and / or reduce pre-ignition and both lowers the efficiency. What speaks for increased efficiency is that the engine's internal friction decreases relative to the produced power of the engine (by the latter increasing sharply).

 

The degree of filling can be affected both positively and negatively, it is partly due to the turbo efficiency and the exhaust and intake design. If the load causes the exhaust pressure increases more than the boost you can expect the engine fill factor decreases. This will also give more residual gases in the combustion chamber which helps to knock and may thus also reduce engine efficiency. Increases boost pressure more than the exhaust pressure so this may help to improve gas exchange and higher fill rates. Count but not with any huge contribution.

 

If you want out 1300 bhp at 2.2 bar then you should probably expect that the engine needs to produce around 400 hp without overcharging, 1300 / (2.2 +1) = 406 hp. 400 hp with a 3 liter engine capacity but did no real oddities

 

 

This will be my last post in this subject. read it and you can draw your own conclusions. Don't just start by cutting my feet before you actually read it.

 

as i said before

 

Air denisity come down to 2 things, pressure and temprature.

 

btw i actually love theese things as iam getting to learn new things. Even tho some people want to judge without be able to get any real proof. I think Scott is a good dude as he actually is trying to explain his toughts (or what he learnt) rather then just cutting my feets off.

 

Cheers!

[Scott]

I've read what you are saying, and I understand where you are drawing your conclusions from. However, I don't understand all the background to what you are saying and whether it is all correct.

 

The only thing I can catagorically say is that there are plenty of 2JZ engines that haven't been oversized running over 1000hp. None of these cars are 400hp N/A engines, they will be a bit more than a stock N/A thanks to the headwork that they have done but 400hp is miles away from the reality.

 

Totally stock 2JZ engines produce 600hp with relative ease. You can hit 600hp without even adding cams nowadays and the power can be hit at relatively low boost levels, 1.3 has been done on this forum alone. The only difference I can think of that is generally across the board would be a slight RPM increase. I think most people would be hitting 7k RPM rather than stock for those type of figures. 8K+ is generally for built engines with seriously high power.

 

It's a never ending roundabout that we have been on, you have your theory behind your thinking and I have mine. At the end of the day there are 100s of cars proving that your theory is flawed somewhere, I'm not the person to point out where though as I'm not THAT interested in where the power comes from.... I'm only really interested in producing it

[Hellstrom]

Honestly i think my theroy is pretty much in place, with a big (?) when it comes to defining the N/A power. An high end N/A engine is about some other bits like a tuned exhaust/header system aswell as intake system. honestly i think the N/A->1bar boost pressure 100% increase is all about how efficeient the engine pumps air. and honestly i might prove the N/A numbers iam after if it was actually built for it (with the suporting N/A modifications) else there must be a missing varible and i would be delighted to actually find out what that missing varible is, so when building an engine one could actually take that varible into account.

[Scott]

Honestly i think my theroy is pretty much in place, with a big (?) when it comes to defining the N/A power. An high end N/A engine is about some other bits like a tuned exhaust/header system aswell as intake system. honestly i think the N/A->1bar boost pressure 100% increase is all about how efficeient the engine pumps air. and honestly i might prove the N/A numbers iam after if it was actually built for it (with the suporting N/A modifications) else there must be a missing varible and i would be delighted to actually find out what that missing varible is, so when building an engine one could actually take that varible into account.

 

You're relatively new here but you will pick up more as time goes on. The guys on here have tried for years to push the 2JZ-GE engine and most end up failing. The only cost effective way to get any power from the GE is to bolt on a turbo or throw nos at it. I think the highest power seen at SRR (our yardstick) is 232hp. You have to remember that this is a GE engine with higher compression and less piping than a GTE so the GTE would be far less even with loads of free flowing supporting mods. In the US I know of at least one highly modified GE engine running around 300hp. It took an insane amount of headwork to get that power though, everyting ported/polished, re-valved etc, etc. The money thrown at it was an excercise to show what could be done as there is no way it was more cost effective than a good single setup.

 

So... bearing the above in mind... it is impossible for the GTE engine to be producing anywhere near the figures you claim they must. The engine just isn't capable of doing it. Unbolting the turbos from the block and putting on a good tubular exhaust manifold would only see the same %age gains as are got on the GE engines..... which again are minimal. 10-15hp is the maximum gain to be had (even that is me being generous) with regards to bolt on breathing mods.

 

I guess that just goes to show how well Toyota engineered the engine in the first place. There isn't a LOT to be had without extensive modification.

[Scott]

Just to add here...

 

The GTE with a bone stock block and head can hit 430hp at 1.3bar of boost. If your theory was correct then this would put the power at 186hp as an N/A? (I think that's correct anyway).

 

Now, this I could agree with.

 

From here, bolt on a precision 6765DBB and turn the boost up to 1.3bar with only bolt on mods... absolutely no headwork whatsoever, and the 430hp will change to just under 600hp. This would mean that the N/A power of the same engine would be said to be 260hp.

 

Ok, let's say that is the case.

 

From here, bolt on a GT45 turbo and turn the boost up to 1.3bar with, again, only bolt on mods....again no headwork, and the 600hp will be blown to bits. I can't actually put forward a power figure for the above as I don't think anyone has bolted a GT45 to a 2JZ without changing the cams to raise the rev limit and make it more useable, headwork to deal with the increased flow and probably most of the bottom end to deal with the power.

 

Unfortunately from this point (GT45) my argument is only theory due to the above never happening but I am 100% sure it would be the case. The 600hp would be blown out of the water. As an example there is a 2JZ on youtube making over 900hp at 1.4bar, it has cams etc though. Lets say, just to be fair, that the GT45 would make 750hp on a stock setup at 1.3bar. This would mean the N/A power of the stock GTE would be 326hp.

 

At this point, without any modifications whatsoever to the engine head or the engine block, it has now surpassed the power of a stock GTE WITH stock twin turbos running 0.7bar of boost.

 

I think everyone can agree this is completely impossible.

[Hellstrom]

there is only one problem with your "proof" your proof says that the engine can swalloy 3 times the air at 1bar (2bar absolutepressure) then it can at the same temprature with 0bar (1bar absolute pressure) it just don't add upp in my head. the choaking point need to be somewhere. at 0 bar say its the valve. hence you cant increase the flow without adding more pressure. since pressure and flow is tied together as they can exist on its own. so to add more flow you would need to add more pressure. to add denisty you could either add cooler air or compress it more (pressure) so for me i just cant see how it is happening.

 

Ofc the Compressor map of the turbo will be important aswell, however unless it is so effective getting 1bar and adding alot cooler air (cooler then an gte engine would get off pressure, without turbo just a filter to the intake) i really cant see how it can increase beyond 100%

 

iam sure there is an explaination and i really want to find it out!

another thing that is important to know is at what A/F ratio the power has been recorded @. as A/F ratio increase power.

 

 

 

Just to add here...

 

The GTE with a bone stock block and head can hit 430hp at 1.3bar of boost. If your theory was correct then this would put the power at 186hp as an N/A? (I think that's correct anyway).

 

Now, this I could agree with.

 

From here, bolt on a precision 6765DBB and turn the boost up to 1.3bar with only bolt on mods... absolutely no headwork whatsoever, and the 430hp will change to just under 600hp. This would mean that the N/A power of the same engine would be said to be 260hp.

 

Ok, let's say that is the case.

 

From here, bolt on a GT45 turbo and turn the boost up to 1.3bar with, again, only bolt on mods....again no headwork, and the 600hp will be blown to bits. I can't actually put forward a power figure for the above as I don't think anyone has bolted a GT45 to a 2JZ without changing the cams to raise the rev limit and make it more useable, headwork to deal with the increased flow and probably most of the bottom end to deal with the power.

 

Unfortunately from this point (GT45) my argument is only theory due to the above never happening but I am 100% sure it would be the case. The 600hp would be blown out of the water. As an example there is a 2JZ on youtube making over 900hp at 1.4bar, it has cams etc though. Lets say, just to be fair, that the GT45 would make 750hp on a stock setup at 1.3bar. This would mean the N/A power of the stock GTE would be 326hp.

 

At this point, without any modifications whatsoever to the engine head or the engine block, it has now surpassed the power of a stock GTE WITH stock twin turbos running 0.7bar of boost.

 

I think everyone can agree this is completely impossible.

Edited September 24, 2011 by Hellstrom (see edit history)

[Scott]

there is only one problem with your "proof" your proof says that the engine can swalloy 3 times the air at 1bar (2bar absolutepressure) then it can at the same temprature with 0bar (1bar absolute pressure) it just don't add upp in my head. the choaking point need to be somewhere. at 0 bar say its the valve. hence you cant increase the flow without adding more pressure. since pressure and flow is tied together as they can exist on its own. so to add more flow you would need to add more pressure. to add denisty you could either add cooler air or compress it more (pressure) so for me i just cant see how it is happening.

 

Ofc the Compressor map of the turbo will be important aswell, however unless it is so effective getting 1bar and adding alot cooler air (cooler then an gte engine would get off pressure, without turbo just a filter to the intake) i really cant see how it can increase beyond 100%

 

iam sure there is an explaination and i really want to find it out!

 

http://i51.tinypic.com/351sfwk.jpg

 

The pressure isn't changing in my examples bud. The only thing that is changing each time is the tempearture of the charge. The bigger the turbo the more efficient it is at generating boost once it gets going. The stock tubbys pushing 1.3bar are at the end off their puff and the air temp will be as high as can be allowed to keep the AFRs & EGTs in check. With the larger turbo, and larger still turbo, it's more efficient and the temperature is dropping hence more molecules of air in the volume leading to bigger bangs.

 

The choke shouldn't be an issue as the volume & pressure of air remains the same, it's the density that is changing.

[Hellstrom]

The reson why another turbo would be better then the stock twins is that @ 1.3 bar you are pusing the stock turbos out of it's effíency islands making them take more power due to increase in back exhaust pressure and increase in heat as its spooling beyond it intened range.

 

as i said in the end it will come down yo how efficient the engine can pump air.

 

Also i might be new here but ive been building engines since 2000. ive tuned a 200sx various BMW various volvos, supra mk3 and some other cars so i would not say iam new. i know verry well how an engine work and how to see how effective a turbo is judgeing it compressor map and calculate airflow needed for xxx hp.

[Hellstrom]

The pressure isn't changing in my examples bud. The only thing that is changing each time is the tempearture of the charge. The bigger the turbo the more efficient it is at generating boost once it gets going. The stock tubbys pushing 1.3bar are at the end off their puff and the air temp will be as high as can be allowed to keep the AFRs & EGTs in check. With the larger turbo, and larger still turbo, it's more efficient and the temperature is dropping hence more molecules of air in the volume leading to bigger bangs.

 

The choke shouldn't be an issue as the volume & pressure of air remains the same, it's the density that is changing.

 

this iam totally agreeing with, however if you think that the engine is an N/A to increse the denisty of the air compared to the charged modell it need to be cooled downed beyond the intake temprature of an 2jzgte with an airfilter to the intake. unless its cooling the air (beyond ambient temprature) its going to be the exacly same denisty. obviously the N/A models also get the best of worlds and sucks ambient temped air to the intake so the heatsoak will be similar for both exampels.

[Scott]

The reson why another turbo would be better then the stock twins is that @ 1.3 bar you are pusing the stock turbos out of it's effíency islands making them take more power due to increase in back exhaust pressure and increase in heat as its spooling beyond it intened range.

 

as i said in the end it will come down yo how efficient the engine can pump air.

 

Also i might be new here but ive been building engines since 2000. ive tuned a 200sx various BMW various volvos, supra mk3 and some other cars so i would not say iam new. i know verry well how an engine work and how to see how effective a turbo is judgeing it compressor map and calculate airflow needed for xxx hp.

 

Ok.. let me try this again.

 

Let's try your theory one more time and use only KNOWN Stock turbo figures.

 

UK/Euro spec supra running 0.7bar (bone stock) generates 320hp. This has been backed up on SRR in the UK. Going by your theory if I divide 320 by 1.7 I will get the approx "N/A" power of the UK spec GTE. 320hp/1.7 = 188hp.

 

As you can see we are still floating around my initial guestimate.

 

Now, bearing that in mind, in order to hit 400hp the boost would need to be set to 1.1bar. Again, this is going by your theory and figures hit on SRR would agree.

 

Where the argument falls down is that the only reason these figures fall into place for your theory is because of how badly inefficient the stock turbos actually are. You can take off the stock turbos, replace them with a much more efficient, incredibly small single and STILL hit exactly the same figures with FAR less boost (400 at 0.6bar is easy).

 

Can you not see where I am coming from here? I haven't moved onto any single turbo figures in this part of my case as I just don't need to and I feel it may be clouding things. The stock setup is ancient and inefficient. Compared to modern day turbos they are as efficient as an industrial hairdryer.

 

Surely you understand that the stock turbos are not in any way efficient. They are not even efficient at their most efficient range compared to new turbos. If they were 100% efficient 100% of the time then your theory would be 100% on the money.

 

I feel I have now exhausted my side of the argument. There is only so many ways you can type the same thing and if you can't see my point now there is really nothing else I can say.

 

It's been interesting though

[Hellstrom]

Scott you keep comparing different turbos, the turbo don't matter (well it does matter as the more effective the tubo is the clooser to 100% power increase you will be) Iam saying at 1 bar absolute pressure the engine can pump xxx amount of air or swallow xx amount of air if you want to. this has NOTHING to do with the turbo. now lets add a turbo you increse it to 1bar (2bar absolute pressure) we can take any turbo you want. the Engine can swollow X amount of air with 1 bar absolute pressure, for your turbo to increase the air going in to the engine it will have to get below ambient temprature (temp reading taken @ intake) you just get stuck with comparing diffrent turbos stock over big singels. it dont hence i really cant belive the engine doing only the stated 180bhp off boost as it would be physically impossible. (maybe it is doing that with if you would remove the internals in the turbo letting the engine suck air trough all the piping using the same exhast system as stock (short runners to increase the EGT for qicker turbo spool)

 

the physics is basically you cant increase flow/denisity in the same (lets say cylinderhead)

 

I have not in 1 single post stated that a bigger turbo is not flowing more then a smaller one, or that the intake temprature will ofc be down HOWEVER that is only VS the other turbo you take into the example and its mostly compared vs the stock. you are and i have agreed from the begining 100% correct.

 

this is not about how much air a turbo can pump, but rather the choking points beeing equally for the engine be it an N/A or a Charged. i will most likely be the same (given correct turbo that can efficeint pump air all the way to the intake with minimal loss (intake temprature)

 

the single turbo will be the most efficient turbo (obviosly) but that dont change how you are capable of fitting alot more oxygen with the bigger turbo (intercooler cant cool down the air futher then ambient temprature) then the engine would "suck" 1 bar absolute pressure (sucking ambient temped air, yeah i know its not going to be ambient due to heat soak but with the right supporting modification it will be close)

 

AGAIN scott this is not about turbo chargers. its about you fitting more then 100% air, @ same temprature and @ same pressure ratio.

 

N/A engine 1bar absolute pressure lets say 20degrees C

Charged 1bar boost 2bar absolute pressure 20degrees C

 

you see iam not comparing diffrent turbos, iam comparing boost and no boost.

 

with the same pipe 1bar will flow xx

same pipe with 2bar will flow dubble.

[dandan]

You can take off the stock turbos, replace them with a much more efficient, incredibly small single and STILL hit exactly the same figures with FAR less boost (400 at 0.6bar is easy).

 

 

I don't know anyone who has done that in such a way that it can be compared to the stock turbos and an NA setup. To keep an apples to apples comparison you'd need the stock airbox, IC, cats and exhaust or else you'll be changing the VE and skewing the comparison.

[Scott]

N/A engine 1bar absolute pressure lets say 20degrees C

Charged 1bar boost 2bar absolute pressure 20degrees C

 

you see iam not comparing diffrent turbos, iam comparing boost and no boost.

 

with the same pipe 1bar will flow xx

same pipe with 2bar will flow dubble.

 

I agree with this part, I've never said anything to the contrary. The only variation I would say is that atmospheric is generally under 1.0bar and the intake will be slightly under atmospheric due to pulling a vacuum. But other than that yeah.

 

My point is based on facts with cars that actually exist, the figures that they have made and the comparison between being stock and being single turbo. Your whole argument has been based on the engine power as an N/A saying that the N/A power of the engine must be increasing wildly (350+hp mentioned). My argument is that this is impossible and that even with the wildest of headwork and CR the maximum made has been 300hp.

 

The stock turbos represent the worst efficiency, the larger ones represent the best efficiency. My point is that with a larger single turbo a Supra can make just under 600hp at 1.3bar. How it does this I cannot say. The headwork involved to get 700hp from 1.6bar isn't radical at all and won't make for a 300hp N/A. I'm aiming for 700hp at around 1.6bar with cams & springs.... that's it.

 

I can only guess that it's down to the timing advance thanks to the higher AFRs. I honestly don't have the answer, I can only tell you what type of power is running around the streets right now and state that it's not down to the N/A power of the engine near doubling.

 

 

I don't know anyone who has done that in such a way that it can be compared to the stock turbos and an NA setup. To keep an apples to apples comparison you'd need the stock airbox, IC, cats and exhaust or else you'll be changing the VE and skewing the comparison.

 

I know it would change the VE and make it better, but it won't make it better than 100% which is what the argument has all been about. The VE with the stock turbos will be pretty bad, but the VE that the engine is capable of as an N/A surely has to be 100%? If you removed all manifolds would the engine not be running to it's maximum potential VE? Adding in the N/A manifolds drops it due to flow restrictions, let's say to 90%, adding in the TT manifolds & Setup drops it to say 80%.

 

All guess work of course, it's just how I'm trying to get my head round it.

 

Have you been following this Dan? Would you agree that if JP took the turbo off of his car he would be driving a 400hp N/A GTE?

[Hellstrom]

I don't think JP's engine would push 400bhp (according to my calculations he made 365) as a N/A, but i do think it has the potential of flowing enought air for around 350-370 N/A. I think it comes down to getting the N/A power out has alot more to do with engine designe. like Swirl, Squish and other verry important stuff as the engine is sucking the air. however in reality i think 365 hp worht of N/A air is possible to pump trough the head. i guess its just a rule of thumb after all

 

but i do think that the 2JZ(GTE) gets more then 180 as N/A (actually plenty more) but thats a diffrent story.

 

If only toyota would release a Compressor map for the C12b and ct20a this guessing about the N/A power of the GTE engine would be know abit more accurate then simply guessing the numbers.

 

i also found this add on pistonhead.

 

3.0 2JZGTE

Full Race Head built by Swindon race engines - See build thread for more info

HKS 264 Cams

ARP Head Bolts

New - Toyota Head Gasket, Oil pump, Water pump and full engine gasket set.

Borg Warner 91/79 Turbo

Custom Manifold and down pipe

50mm Tial V Band wastegate routed back into downpipe

Custom air filter

V Mounted Intercooler and Radiator with alloy expansion tank.

Thermal protection intake manifold gasket

800cc PE Injectors

RPS Lightened flywheel

RPS Street Max Clutch

-8 Braided fuel lines throughout

Bosch 044 after swirl pot with walbros in tank for pickup

 

Engine produces 600bhp and 550ftlb at 1.5bar. Can be tuned to 1.8bar on new owners request but 600bhp is more than enough to get used to car.

 

[email protected] fully built head with 264 camshafts.

Edited September 25, 2011 by Hellstrom (see edit history)

[Guest Soiled]

You guys must go to test quarter mile. That time + end speed tells us more than dyno result. That kind of power (900hp) you should be driving low 10s or high 9s. If going more than 10s we can assume something about that dyno.

[JamieP]

I don't think JP's engine would push 400bhp (according to my calculations he made 365) as a N/A.

 

My car made 260bhp with zero boost on SRR's dyno, it went on to make 915bhp at 1.6bar, i was told i was getting wheel spin on the dyno though so it was most likely higher than that.

Edited September 29, 2011 by JamieP (see edit history)