derren brown on tonight

[Jake]

I noticed that woman came up to the stage before he asked her to so obviously a (bad) actor.

What woman? The scared-of-mice woman didn't do that.

[Scott]

Are you saying that the thing about reversing the middle coin and putting it first it true? Seems hard to believe.

 

Thats not what i meant. I meant that before he explained it he said that it was the collective will of the people getting the results.

 

Since you have mentioned it though 1 of 1 with 2 of the other will always be more likely to come out before 3 of a kind will in a 50/50 toss. What he said isn't entirely true as if the person had chosen HTH then that would mean he would choose HHT which has slightly less of a probability than HTH. HHH & TTT has no chance though.

[Jake]

Thanks Scott.

 

----------

 

One more thing, when they were waiting for Tyler to work out the averages, DB says "598 divided by 23 equals..." and the answer was correctly given as 26 - the number they needed.

How convenient that the numbers they had given added up to a total which was wholly divisible by 23.

 

Try it, add 23 numbers together and then divide the total by 23. The average will almost never be a whole number.

 

I guess this means Tyler was definitely a stooge?

[Scott]

Thanks Scott.

 

----------

 

One more thing, when they were waiting for Tyler to work out the averages, DB says "598 divided by 23 equals..." and the answer was correctly given as 26 - the number they needed.

How convenient that the numbers they had given added up to a total which was wholly divisible by 23.

 

Try it, add 23 numbers together and then divide the total by 23. The average will almost never be a whole number.

 

I guess this means Tyler was definitely a stooge?

 

I thought about that with the whole thing to be honest. Its coming across as a massive con right from the get-go. Fractions were never explained or taken account of anywhere in the show. I didn't take the time to work out the divisions myself but i too found it very convenient.

 

I did pick up on the guy with the calculator shaking like a leaf though. Its either they have thought of everything or the guy really was nervous.

[mathew]

i think people are missing the point of derren brown here. ive been a big fan of his for a while and on numerous occasions (including in his book) he has emphasised the fact that he is not a magician (as many seem to believe) or claims to be. he is, as he puts it, an entertainer. this latest 'trick' has no doubt entertained people, its certainly got many talking about it, and therefore he has achieved what he's set out to achieve - to entertain people.

but as martin said im sure this is all a build up to something much more entertaining/confusing/intriguing etc etc.

[Scott]

i think people are missing the point of derren brown here. ive been a big fan of his for a while and on numerous occasions (including in his book) he has emphasised the fact that he is not a magician (as many seem to believe) or claims to be. he is, as he puts it, an entertainer. this latest 'trick' has no doubt entertained people, its certainly got many talking about it, and therefore he has achieved what he's set out to achieve - to entertain people.

but as martin said im sure this is all a build up to something much more entertaining/confusing/intriguing etc etc.

 

His book is full of shit. He is a magician, and a damn good one. Years before he was famous he was very promising and he is shit hot with a deck of cards too. He decided to go down the psychic & mentalist route which pretty much put him where he is today. He puts a different slant on the way he promotes his tricks though. He likes to be a part of the trick as much as the audience. This, nowadays, makes him more likeable. People don't like to be tricked now, they like to be entertained hence his statements in his book. He is a part of 5 as far as i know, he doesn't come up with all this stuff on his own. Much like Blaine

 

Don't believe anything he says, does or writes.

[Jake]

i think people are missing the point of derren brown here. ive been a big fan of his for a while and on numerous occasions (including in his book) he has emphasised the fact that he is not a magician (as many seem to believe) or claims to be. he is, as he puts it, an entertainer. this latest 'trick' has no doubt entertained people, its certainly got many talking about it, and therefore he has achieved what he's set out to achieve - to entertain people.

but as martin said im sure this is all a build up to something much more entertaining/confusing/intriguing etc etc.

 

Yeah but he IS a magician, regardless of whether he likes being described as such.

 

It doesn't much matter what he says because he tells lies about what his tricks are and how they are done.

 

FWIW I was a big fan of DB too. I've also got his Tricks Of The Mind book and I've been to see his show. To me though, he's let himself down a bit with this lottery trick and the blatant lies about how it was performed.

[Axle]

he's let himself down a bit with this lottery trick and the blatant lies about how it was performed.

 

Big time.

[lexsum]

It was a lie to say here is how it was done. At least penn & teller had the balls to show the trick when they said they would. I wasted a whole hour on this crap and his bad science.

[JohnA]

Yeah but he IS a magician, regardless of whether he likes being described as such.

 

It doesn't much matter what he says because he tells lies about what his tricks are and how they are done.

 

FWIW I was a big fan of DB too. I've also got his Tricks Of The Mind book and I've been to see his show. To me though, he's let himself down a bit with this lottery trick and the blatant lies about how it was performed.

 

I liked his book because it pokes fun on all those who think he's psychic or 'evil' and there is quite a lot of self-deprecating humour as well.

He stops short of admitting to editing out most of the peripheral (but crucial) footage buy hey, that's his trade.

 

Got many of the books mentioned in the 'bibliography' at the end by the way.

[Willson]

I have to say that even though I felt that the explanation was rubbish, I have greatly enjoyed the discussions on the web about how he did it, the videos etc. And the fact that he lied keeps it interesting.

 

On the other hand, isn't camera trickery the lowest of the low for a magician! Paul Daniels would never go there!

 

His "waking hypnosis" / neurolinguistic programming stuff is much cleverer and he has often shown how he actually did the trick - but I am wondering if some of that is just a charade now.

[tbourner]

What woman? The scared-of-mice woman didn't do that.

Only slightly, he pointed at her and said "You." And she started looking down to check her feet and started to step at the same time as him saying come up onto stage - at the time I felt it was a bit faked that's all.

 

Are you saying that the thing about reversing the middle coin and putting it first it true? Seems hard to believe.

 

Thats not what i meant. I meant that before he explained it he said that it was the collective will of the people getting the results.

 

Since you have mentioned it though 1 of 1 with 2 of the other will always be more likely to come out before 3 of a kind will in a 50/50 toss. What he said isn't entirely true as if the person had chosen HTH then that would mean he would choose HHT which has slightly less of a probability than HTH. HHH & TTT has no chance though.

It's not about chance, technically they all have the same probability of coming up but statistically you're right.

The fact is you're making it so your choice of 3 HAVE to come up before their choice of 3, so on the occasions (50/50) when their 3rd letter is the wrong one you are 1 point ahead. For example, if they choose HHT then you choose THH, even if the first tosses are all H eventually you'll get a T (1 point to them), but then for them to get another point you have to get a point first. It's the same with all combinations.

 

One more thing, when they were waiting for Tyler to work out the averages, DB says "598 divided by 23 equals..." and the answer was correctly given as 26 - the number they needed.

How convenient that the numbers they had given added up to a total which was wholly divisible by 23.

 

Try it, add 23 numbers together and then divide the total by 23. The average will almost never be a whole number.

 

I guess this means Tyler was definitely a stooge?

Well so far the lottery prediction thread has come up with our 6 numbers of:

16.8 - 21.7 - 23.4 - 24.7 - 24.8 - 368.5

All to 1 dp of course!

 

He usually explains his stunts at the end (of the series?) though, so maybe when his big finale is done he'll go back and give some explanations about all the missing pieces - maybe his tricks are just a means to an end.

 

Did anyone see the auditorium one where they chose the Daily Mail and ripped a page into bits and chose a word from it. Do people not believe the idea that he used suggestion to 'coerce' people into the right series of choices? Or do you all think it's just slight of hand and general magician tricks to get a different piece of paper into the final scene?

I for one believe that suggestion is wholey possible on a large majority of people, and he's very good at it. No doubt he uses more camera trickery and a lot more takes than most regular magicians so we don't see the ones where people just go "No, what are you talking about!", but still, I'm usually impressed and interested in his explanations.

[RedM]

Here's something a tad interesting.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/culture/tvandradioblog/2009/sep/11/derren-brown-lottery-trick?showallcomments=true

 

and scroll or ctrl+f for Lord Boogemont who writes:

 

My mates were at the show last night (one of them was the girl on her own looking up at the screen when he gave the "fix" explanation) and they are spitting feathers cos apparently at the screening he showed a video of himself on an open-topped bus driving through Oxford St in Xmas 2008. He was there with six other people who were holding up the numbers that were picked out on Wednesday night. They're surprised he didn't use that footage in the broadcast. Although the girl is mostly just pleased to have been on the tellybox.

 

...and then have a look at this page from Googles cache

 

http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:CHaAYZkVERcJ:derrenbrown.co.uk/blog/2008/11/on-a-bus-me/+Derren+brown+xmas+2008+bus&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=firefox-a

 

Hmmmm

[RiceRocket]

He decided to go down the psychic & mentalist route which pretty much put him where he is today.

 

Maybe someone out there will decide to go down the 'Red John' route.....

 

[Scott]

It's not about chance, technically they all have the same probability of coming up but statistically you're right.

The fact is you're making it so your choice of 3 HAVE to come up before their choice of 3, so on the occasions (50/50) when their 3rd letter is the wrong one you are 1 point ahead. For example, if they choose HHT then you choose THH, even if the first tosses are all H eventually you'll get a T (1 point to them), but then for them to get another point you have to get a point first. It's the same with all combinations.

 

Don't go down this route again lol. Doing something 3 times in a row is less probable than doing something 2 times in a row. The odds stay the same with each individual toss but the odds of 3 tosses in a specific pattern change drastically (8-1 as he explained at the start)

[Tannhauser]

I'm surprised at the grumpiness at some of the reactions on this thread.

 

There's an interview with him somewhere on the web where he says that he hopes his audience will be entertained trying to figure out where any 'psychological techniques' stop and traditional magic tricks begin. Right at the start of the 'explanations' programme, it gives the standard introduction that the programme involves a mixture of misdirection, trickery, blah blah, so there is no reason to suppose that all will be revealed. It's another aspect to the act, and I don't see why that is lying any more than any other magic act. That's what magicians do, right?

 

On some of the Critical Thinking forums, they refer to him as 'debunking woo with woo'. In other words, he shows how so-called 'psychic abilities' and spiritualism are nonsense, and can easily be reproduced with trickery, but then goes on to talk about 'psychological techniques' which are equally nonsensical. So from my point of view, he's really challenging his audience's reasoning ability by saying 'OK, I've shown you why spiritualism is rubbish, now apply the same logic to - for example - my claims that I can read someone's body language and control their behaviour.'

 

Incidentally, with regard to 'psychological techniques' like cold reading, I read some comments by Ian Rowlings (Rawling?), who is one of the foremost experts on cold reading, and he said DB is absolutely phenomenal at that and other 'mentalism' type stuff. Of course, that doesn't mean that he uses it as much as he claims to produce his effects.

[Axle]

Tan, I hear what you are saying mate, and I have a lot of time for your views.

 

I'm surprised at the grumpiness at some of the reactions on this thread.

 

However on this note, the problem isn't really directly related to any psychological technique that your average car salesman couldn't use. Does lying even fall into that category?

 

The problem is, once you start being blatantly deceitful to your audience, it is very difficult to ever win their trust back, and in turn reactions such as those in this thread.

 

A wise man once said..

 

It is the responsibility of intellectuals to speak the truth and expose lies.

[Dave]

the sad thing is some people actually believe he did it

[RedM]

the sad thing is some people actually believe he did it

 

Indeed. Although he has apparently purchased a ticket for tonight's draw.

 

It'd certainly be something to talk about if he wins.

[Axle]

he has apparently purchased a ticket for tonight's draw.

 

I thought someone suggested he was banned from doing so?

[RedM]

I thought someone suggested he was banned from doing so?

 

He was but for Wednesday's draw only.

[mathew]

there will be a lot less internet discussion if next weeks trick goes as planned:D

[lexsum]

I thought someone suggested he was banned from doing so?

 

Yes, he suggested that, balls of course if you pardon the pun. I really dont care about him either but to say 'i will show you how' then don't is lying and a waste of time - bring back real magic not slimey fakers i say.

[RedM]

there will be a lot less internet discussion if next weeks trick goes as planned:D

 

That's why the Baby Jesus invented laptops.

[Tannhauser]

The problem is, once you start being blatantly deceitful to your audience, it is very difficult to ever win their trust back, and in turn reactions such as those in this thread.

 

OK, what I just don't understand is (a) why anyone thinks that he's deceitful and (b) why anyone would be annoyed about that anyway.

 

I can't see why any part of his act is deceitful. If you watch any magician, you already know that things are not what they appear, that's why you are watching: to enjoy being fooled. If a magician says, or implies, that he has retrieved a coin from behind your ear, there's no deceit. You know and he knows that it was never really there.

 

Nor can I see any deceit in the lack of explanation. First of all, he makes it quite clear that the main method described (i.e. group prediction) isn't how he did it. So the only deceit is if someone was watching the programme with a 100% expectation of an explanation - and why would anyone think that? After all, magicians very rarely give away their secrets. That's how Penn and Teller could market themselves successfully. Anyone who has seen DB before knows that you get occasional glimpses of explanations - like the coin tossing one - particularly if he can take a poke at psychic beliefs.

 

Everything a magician does is deceitful, in the name of entertainment. So again, accusing a magician of being too deceitful seems like accusing an actor of pretending too much.

 

Maybe I'm missing something.

 

bring back real magic not slimey fakers i say.

 

'Real' magic? What, like Gandalf?