Turbo timers and alarms...

[TRD3000GT]

Ok, I have a Blitz FATT timer on my car and I cant ut the alarm on while the car is running...

 

It only lets me lock and alarm the car once the timer is finished.. I was looking around and MAY have found a way to make all of out turbo timers compatible with our alarms so that we no longer need to stand there like muppets waiting to turn our alarms on...

 

Have a look at this wiring diagram and let me know.. Id most like to hear from Matt Harwood to what he thinks as well?

[DaveRex]

I had this issue when I used a aftermarket turbo timer and had a clifford alarm fitted

 

the solution for me was to ditch the aftermarket turbo timer and get the Clifford Turbo timer option, works fine

 

Just thought I'd mention it, presumeably if you tried to bypass it the alarm once armed, would go off anyway through the motion of the car when the engine was still running

 

Unless you are intending on getting a bit clever with wiring etc

[foodfreak]

Check with Matt H Chris,

My Fatt timer works o.k with the Clifford,

it's just a matter of the correct wiring

John

[CJ]

Mine works fine too

[Barry]

I just stand there and wait for it to switch off, its never usually more the 90 seconds, maybe 2 mins at the most as I always take the last few miles very easy.

 

How often do you get out your car and run off!? Can you not just wait for a minute!?

[neo1]

Had a Cobra fitted the other day, the electronics master mind fitted a couple of relays and hey presto, fully armed while turbo timer is still running, try to get in the car and the alarm goes off and the car shuts down and the immobiliser is activated instantly .... no 30 second delay. So it still maintains its CAT 1 certification. Wont plugg them on the site but if you are in the south-east and need a CAT 1 fitted so your turbo timer still does its thing PM me and i will let you know who they are.... Prices are VERY good too

[terribleturner]

May need that number Neo. I've got a Cobra alarm and a Blitz Fatt. Usually i just lock the car and walk off. When the engine shuts off the immobiliser kicks in. I never leave it for long periods in this state though, just running into shops.

I think the very slow walk from the car works for me otherwise

[JohnA]

I wouldn't fit a turbo timer even if someone paid me to.

 

An immobiliser-bypassing facility that promotes idling a turbo motor? No thanks...

 

Frequent changes of synthetic oil and common sense when shutting down after full-boost runs are far better.

 

The water jacket is there to take away the excess heat spike if you're forgetful.

[terribleturner]

I thought it was to cool down the turbo's that you leave the engine ideling for a minute after boosting?? Also isn't it an ignition bypass not an immobiliser bypass?? My immobiliser works 30 seconds after the engine cuts out. I'm probably totally wrong and usually am Anyone??

[JohnA]

I thought it was to cool down the turbo's that you leave the engine ideling for a minute after boosting??

yeah, that was in the good ol' days of aircooled turbos and mineral oils (that coked easily)

Now it's just a useless gizmo that can do no good.

Coasting down off-boost is far better for the engine than keep it idling and adding even more heat. During hot idle oil pressure is at it's lowest, and the cams don't particularly love it.

Also isn't it an ignition bypass not an immobiliser bypass?? My immobiliser works 30 seconds after the engine cuts out.

It's something known to be used by thieves to bypass security. Why make it easier for them?

[eyefi]

imo turbo timers do not pose a risk to your engine, your engine hot idles all the time, engines are made to idle. i think its always a good idea to drive a mile or two off boost before you stop but my life is by no means perfectly organised for me to sit in the car every time i stop at a shop or bob into someones house. the turbo timer is a great day to day device especially when set to auto time (where the timer watches your rpm).

 

with my security the TT can not be used to bypass anything the system does. it can not be used to start the car, it can not be used to power up the fuel pump and it can not be used to turn off the alarm.

 

idling for a minute or so is beneficial to turbo cooling, keeping the oil and water moving through the cartridge has to be good. idling for 5 or 10 mins on the other hand probably does more harm than good.

 

i like turbo timers and went to alot of trouble to get mine intergrated with my alarm.

 

chris, depending on your system there is a better way to do it than with a relay (like in the partydown instruction). pm me if you want to chat about it cos it's not ideal to talk about it on an open forum,

[Class One]

The only prob about locking the car and walking away whilst your turbo timer is rnning the engine and counting down is that its an offence to leave your car running whilst unattended. Just for info.

[JohnA]

It's probably also an offence to be at full boost seconds before stopping at the shops (or someone's house) lol...

 

The point I'm trying to make is that in real life it's unlikely to have done full boost 30-60 seconds before switching it off.

Track days and motorway refuelling are the most likely scenaria I can think of.

[klump]

So from someone who hasnt got a turbo timer - should i

a) get one

b) not bother

[TRD3000GT]

The only prob about locking the car and walking away whilst your turbo timer is rnning the engine and counting down is that its an offence to leave your car running whilst unattended. Just for info.

 

 

With your keys in the ignition... I got done by a cop with this, I told him to get in the car and try and drive it off..

 

The second I unlocked the door and he sat in it and released the handbrake it died and he said oh well.. I guess you have all the angles covered

[eyefi]

It's probably also an offence to be at full boost seconds before stopping at the shops (or someone's house) lol...

 

The point I'm trying to make is that in real life it's unlikely to have done full boost 30-60 seconds before switching it off.

Track days and motorway refuelling are the most likely scenaria I can think of.

 

im not really sure what yr saying. first it was hot idling a car is bad for the cams and TT's are security risks, useless gizmos that can do no good and now im not sure where this full boost seconds before stopping thing has come from. there is still plenty of opportunity of a good deal of heat build-up in a turbo when not used at full boost. now with the sequential system no1 is alot more likely to be hot after even moderate driving so all the better that it's idled for a minute.

 

i just think you made some misleading remarks that can only confuse folk. TT's are great convenience devices, if you don't like them then fair enough but lets not mislead folk.

 

btw, there are no traffic laws that govern the amount of positive pressure that an engine see's around shops or peoples houses. im not sure why you tried to rubbish that point?

 

it would be nice to be able to shut off the engine and still be able to circulate oil through the bearings (electric pump), but i dont really want to be carrying around that extra weight.

 

klump, if you want convenience and better care of your turbos get one, if you like waiting around in the car then it probably not for you

[JohnA]

im not really sure what yr saying. first it was hot idling a car is bad for the cams and TT's are security risks, useless gizmos that can do no good

correct

... not sure where this full boost seconds before stopping thing has come from. there is still plenty of opportunity of a good deal of heat build-up in a turbo when not used at full boost. now with the sequential system no1 is alot more likely to be hot after even moderate driving so all the better that it's idled for a minute.

It's at high/full throttle that the turbo(s) really spin hard and EGTs move upwards. While poodling around town you're not really creating the heatsoak conditions that turbo-timers claim to combat.

i just think you made some misleading remarks that can only confuse folk.

Not really, only you seem to be confused, perhaps because you're trying to justify the function of a turbo timer.

Since you've already got one, it is to be expected...

btw, there are no traffic laws that govern the amount of positive pressure that an engine see's around shops or peoples houses. im not sure why you tried to rubbish that point?

The point is that one should be driving in a very dangerous manner if full boost is to be registered 30-60 seconds before stopping in a residential/shopping area. Which is unlikely, isn't it?

it would be nice to be able to shut off the engine and still be able to circulate oil through the bearings (electric pump), but i dont really want to be carrying around that extra weight.

Very true, an electric oil pump would indeed be a positive addition.

But turbo timers don't do that, they just run the engine on idle, which is not as good as it originally sounds. I've seen people start the car, reverse out of the garage and let it idle for 5mins before switching off to 'protect the turbo'.

Turbo timers promote this sort of destructive 'overprotection', and turbo-timer marketing literature tries to scare people into this sort of thinking --- which is wrong.

[neo1]

My system has had the TT integrated into the feed from the alarm, not to the alarm! there is no way of getting anything working by using the TT or the loom from the TT. It has been completely isolated from the ignition system. even if the window is knocked the TT is locked out, the alarm sounds and the Imobiliser is activated instantly (the car is dead in the water)..... unlike the crude hand brake method that just a TT on its own uses.

[eyefi]

correct

 

It's at high/full throttle that the turbo(s) really spin hard and EGTs move upwards. While poodling around town you're not really creating the heatsoak conditions that turbo-timers claim to combat.

 

Not really, only you seem to be confused, perhaps because you're trying to justify the function of a turbo timer.

Since you've already got one, it is to be expected...

The point is that one should be driving in a very dangerous manner if full boost is to be registered 30-60 seconds before stopping in a residential/shopping area. Which is unlikely, isn't it?

 

Very true, an electric oil pump would indeed be a positive addition.

But turbo timers don't do that, they just run the engine on idle, which is not as good as it originally sounds. I've seen people start the car, reverse out of the garage and let it idle for 5mins before switching off to 'protect the turbo'.

Turbo timers promote this sort of destructive 'overprotection', and turbo-timer marketing literature tries to scare people into this sort of thinking --- which is wrong.

 

you first comment is just not true though is it?

 

it's not just full throttle that puts heat into turbos. like i said no1 will get very hot without ever going over 4k revs.

 

well im not sure what your interpreting as confusion on my part, i don't feel confused. i thought i'd been quite clear in my posts. im not trying to justify the function of a TT, im saying it is a useful device for me. i don't get paid to promote TT's, and i don't defend or promote something that i don't think works just because i have one. im begining to think that you are just trolling with these coments. klump doesn't seem too sure (no offence intended klump) and i think thats because he's read what you wrote. this is my point you are not putting forward an argument for good cooldown practices but rather an argument that turbo timers are bad, which is simply not true.

 

im not sure where this 30/60 seconds thing has come from. why did you just imagine those numbers? on my way to work i have a fast country lane, twistys and straights, plenty of on off boost stuff. after a few miles of this i turn onto a main road (40mph) and 200yds down the road is a shop i buy milk at to take to work. there's just one simple unexagerated example.

 

and once again, it's not just full throttle that puts heat into turbos.

 

i never said TT's where the same as an electric pump system, im fully aware they run the engine at idle, but there is no harm in this, its better than just turning the engine off. cool down driving is good but not always possible or convenient. do you not understand this point?

 

agreed overprotection is bad but it's not the TT's fault or the literature that supports it, it's ignorance. it's a lack of understanding or because they have been incorrectly informed, so why you dismiss TT's (and promote this dismissal) is beyond me. i havn't heard a good reason from you yet that supports TT's are bad

[JohnA]

you first comment is just not true though is it?

of course it is true, why else would I post it?

it's not just full throttle that puts heat into turbos. like i said no1 will get very hot without ever going over 4k revs.

yes, but you forget that there is a water jacket all around the bearing. It will absorb any excess heat buildup, so the oil will not go anywhere near coking temps (which is exactly what turbo-timers claim to protect you from)

well im not sure what your interpreting as confusion on my part, i don't feel confused.

excellent then

 

im begining to think that you are just trolling with these coments.

I'm beginning to think that you are just trying to be offended with these comments

klump doesn't seem too sure (no offence intended klump) and i think thats because he's read what you wrote.

that was the intention: to make him think twice before investing time and money on something that is of no value on this car.

im not sure where this 30/60 seconds thing has come from. why did you just imagine those numbers?

I've got vivid imagination perhaps.

Or I've got turbocharger tech manuals and have done temperature tests myself as well. Take your pick.

 

on my way to work i have a fast country lane, twistys and straights, plenty of on off boost stuff. after a few miles of this i turn onto a main road (40mph) and 200yds down the road is a shop i buy milk at to take to work. there's just one simple unexagerated example.

you can just switch off then, and absolutely no harm will happen to any of your turbos mate, as long as you run a good synthetic oil which you change often (which you would do, being particular about turbocharger lifespan, hence your fitting of the TT )

and once again, it's not just full throttle that puts heat into turbos.

it is actually

 

but there is no harm in this, its better than just turning the engine off.

If there hasn't been a high/full boost run in the last 30-60 seconds, then it's better to switch off rather than let it run on idle for a few minutes.

Oil pressure is at it's lowest on hot idle, and cam wear (to pick one parameter) is at it's highest

agreed overprotection is bad but it's not the TT's fault or the literature that supports it, it's ignorance.

TT marketing blurb tries to instill fear, so the punter will buy the product to help protect their turbo bearing from dying early. This is misleading, as far as today's turbocharger/oil technology are concerned.

It used to be true back in the late seventies/early eighties though, because all turbos were aircooled and there were no synthetic oils in the market (not affordable ones, anyway...)

[eyefi]

of course it is true, why else would I post it?

 

yes, but you forget that there is a water jacket all around the bearing. It will absorb any excess heat buildup, so the oil will not go anywhere near coking temps (which is exactly what turbo-timers claim to protect you from)

 

excellent then

 

 

I'm beginning to think that you are just trying to be offended with these comments

 

that was the intention: to make him think twice before investing time and money on something that is of no value on this car.

 

I've got vivid imagination perhaps.

Or I've got turbocharger tech manuals and have done temperature tests myself as well. Take your pick.

 

 

you can just switch off then, and absolutely no harm will happen to any of your turbos mate, as long as you run a good synthetic oil which you change often (which you would do, being particular about turbocharger lifespan, hence your fitting of the TT )

 

it is actually

 

 

If there hasn't been a high/full boost run in the last 30-60 seconds, then it's better to switch off rather than let it run on idle for a few minutes.

Oil pressure is at it's lowest on hot idle, and cam wear (to pick one parameter) is at it's highest

 

TT marketing blurb tries to instill fear, so the punter will buy the product to help protect their turbo bearing from dying early. This is misleading, as far as today's turbocharger/oil technology are concerned.

It used to be true back in the late seventies/early eighties though, because all turbos were aircooled and there were no synthetic oils in the market (not affordable ones, anyway...)

 

where is the proof that a car idling is not producing enough oil pressure to lube the cams. this car would be very badly designed (cavalier maybe ) or have other mechanical problems causing it.

 

and it can not be used to steal the car

 

not everyone has water jackets on their turbos. water jackets do not help the cooling process enough without moving water in them.

 

stop the car after the drive described and the oil will stop entering the bearing immediately, any oil that was in there will immediately drain away, no oil is left in the bearings (except a little that clings to the surfaces which then precededs to cook), nothing to take the heat away from the shaft apart from the bearing, not good, not good at all. synth oil will not coke but synth oil is by no means indestructable, and syth oil is not just syth oil. it's full of cleaners, corrosion inhibitors, viscosity enhancers etc.

 

can i have a look at yr turbo tech manuals and logged data?

[JohnA]

where is the proof that a car idling is not producing enough oil pressure to lube the cams.

nobody claimed this mate.

What I said is that oil pressure is at it's lowest, while cam wear is at it's highest.

Every tuner knows this, that's why cam manufacturers always ask you to keep the revs at 2-3K rpm for a while after you fit new cams. Idling is very bad indeed for them

 

not everyone has water jackets on their turbos.

Those with stock turbos or hybrids do have water jackets.

Those with 'singles' may or may not have. (some may also have roller bearings, which have far less dependence on a steady stream of oil to survive)

In any case, myself and thousands of others have run aircooled turbos for ages without any hint of bearing wear, just by sticking to frequent synth oil changes and common sense.

Taking into account the current state of turbocharger/oil technology, one would be correct to say that the TT advertisers have made up this 'problem' out of thin air I'm afraid.

Not an uncommon practice in the aftermarket or 'performance' automotive market.

water jackets do not help the cooling process enough without moving water in them.

Oh yes they do, quite a lot actually. It takes 1 calorie to raise the temp of 1 gram (1mm3) of water by 1 degree Celcius. But it takes an absolute fortune (in energy terms) to turn that gram into steam (in which case we'd have a localised hot 'pocket', which is not good for reliabity)

 

stop the car after the drive described and the oil will stop entering the bearing immediately, any oil that was in there will immediately drain away, no oil is left in the bearings (except a little that clings to the surfaces which then precededs to cook),

Not correct I'm afraid, you'd have to look at cutouts of modern turbo bearings. Manufacturers are not stupid you know, they don't want angry punters demanding a refund a few days after they've bought (and perhaps abused) their car.

nothing to take the heat away from the shaft apart from the bearing, not good, not good at all.

Again not true, there are computer models descibing heat management right after shutdown, or else we'd be back in the early seventies, when a turbo was expected to be dead meat after 30-40K miles...

synth oil will not coke but synth oil is by no means indestructable, and syth oil is not just syth oil. it's full of cleaners, corrosion inhibitors, viscosity enhancers etc.

That's why it has to be *fresh*, renewed after 3-4K miles ideally...

can i have a look at yr turbo tech manuals and logged data?

Maybe, if you drop the attitude for a sec.

I'm not here to argue pointlessly with keyboard warriors. Have a look at my website, go under 'turbocharger' and see if you find anything useful.

Then go to my 'book reviews' page and check out some of my favourite books, most are still available to buy.

 

If you're still hungry (and ask nicely ), maybe I could save on my server and email you the links of a couple of manuals, where you may find "trivial" facts that may be shocking perhaps (say how much is the maximum crank pressure for turbo oil return flow to be within spec)

 

Cheers,

 

John

[eyefi]

Maybe, if you drop the attitude for a sec.

I'm not here to argue pointlessly with keyboard warriors.

 

because of this attitude im not going to bother to continue this debate. it's clear you don't like someone offering a valid argument. im not a keyboard terrorist the debate had point.

 

it is interesting however that you failed to quote this point

 

cool down driving is good but not always possible or convenient. do you not understand this point?

 

why don't you turn your engine off everytime you come to a standstill to save on all that cam wear.

[JohnA]

because of this attitude im not going to bother to continue this debate. .

 

Fair enough mate, I think that this thread has run it's course anyway.

Might be useful as a reference for others in the future, interested in the issue.

 

Bye for now...

[eyefi]

Bye for now...

 

aye, later...