Class One Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 There have been instances when persons have been charged and convicted of murder after using their car to kill somone, but the crucial point in any murder charge is malice aforethought. Instead, perhaps thought should be given to increase the penalties for those convicted of causing death whilst under the influence of drink or drugs, or causing death by dangerous driving as often the penalties given out on conviction hardly seem commensurate with the offence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt H Posted July 1, 2009 Author Share Posted July 1, 2009 So - following your (entirely flawed) logic - getting caught for drink driving when you haven't actually had an accident would now be classed as attempted murder? I don't think so. Good point, and yes Following that logic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt H Posted July 1, 2009 Author Share Posted July 1, 2009 There have been instances when persons have been charged and convicted of murder after using their car to kill somone, but the crucial point in any murder charge is malice aforethought. Instead, perhaps thought should be given to increase the penalties for those convicted of causing death whilst under the influence of drink or drugs, or causing death by dangerous driving as often the penalties given out on conviction hardly seem commensurate with the offence. I agree with you Doug. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbourner Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 I've never understood justice anyway, surely the idea is to punish people that do wrong with the intention of putting people off doing wrong in the first place - by scaring them with the consequences? So why is manslaughter such a high sentence? It was an accident! Sure the family won't see it that way but what good will it do putting them in prison? Just make them more likely to commit crimes than they were before they went in! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveR Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 Good point, and yes Following that logic. I agree with you Doug. Which is it? Is drink driving "attempted murder" in your mind, or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leonv Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 If I killed someone whilst driving under the influence of strong painkillers, would that be premedicated murder? If the tablets carry a warning, yes, if not, no Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 you didnt get it leonv, nevermind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leonv Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 So - following your (entirely flawed) logic - getting caught for drink driving when you haven't actually had an accident would now be classed as attempted murder? I don't think so. If you get caught for drink driving, you get charged for it, if you drink drive, and kill someone, you made a concious decision, knowing what your actions might cause (taking a life), to do it anyway. Same as speeding, same as using a mobile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sullyd Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 surely the same should be said of driving too fast? You choose to drive over the speed limit whenever you do it, so you are therefore knowingly risking killing somebody through your own actions.. ya thatS true the courts only give 7 - 9 years for death by dangerous driving the chap that killed my buddys got a fine and a ban of 6years his back driving and the parents of the lads are witout their sons How would you feel if it was one of your family Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbourner Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 Is causing death by dangerous driving a harsher punishment than killing someone if you were driving within the law then (if you can get anyone to believe you )? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveK Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 ya thatS true the courts only give 7 - 9 years for death by dangerous driving the chap that killed my buddys got a fine and a ban of 6years his back driving and the parents of the lads are witout their sons How would you feel if it was one of your family That's not the point of the thread though. Your point is that the punishment he got was not sufficient in your view. That doesn't mean the solution is to make it a murder charge - there is no logic to that at all. The solution - as has already been suggested several times - is to make the punishment more severe for the existing charge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt H Posted July 1, 2009 Author Share Posted July 1, 2009 Which is it? Is drink driving "attempted murder" in your mind, or not. As you haven't understood, i merely raised the question. I understand both sides of the arguement. But i do swing slightly towards it not being so as it's very tricky, as displayed, to argue the oposite; as while no one will be going out intentionally killing someone, they are certainly armed with all the tools to do so, and disregarded the fact that they might by getting in the car in the first place. I would certainly agree with Man Slaughter as a minimum. I agree with Doug statements about raising the penalties for drink driving (i didn't clip the other bit). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 I always find younger (under 30 years of age) people, from the towns, have a totally different view of drink driving to older people that lived through less draconian times, or who live out in the sticks. I can go to countless pubs round here and GUARANTEE many, if not most people are going to drive home well over the limit. It's a way of life in some areas. It's their decision, their risk, I personally have no strong views on it, so long as they don't run ME over on the way home. Other people who witness this are sometimes appalled, but things are very different wheere there's no public transport, and traffic is ultra light. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt H Posted July 1, 2009 Author Share Posted July 1, 2009 It's their decision, their risk, I personally have no strong views on it, so long as they don't run ME over on the way home. That is shocking. So you're saying the only risk is to their own licence, is that all that is on line here? F"ck em if they kill themselves, it's the innocent people who get hurt and don't make that decision to drive home pissed. But i quess it's o.k if you don't get run over, anyone else it's fine then?! Appaling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz6002 Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 That is shocking. So you're saying the only risk is to their own licence, is that all that is on line here? F"ck em if they kill themselves, it's the innocent people who get hurt and don't make that decision to drive home pissed. But i quess it's o.k if you don't get run over, anyone else it's fine then?! Appaling. I think you've just highlighted exactly what Chris was saying actually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supra_aero Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 I always find younger (under 30 years of age) people, from the towns, have a totally different view of drink driving to older people that lived through less draconian times, or who live out in the sticks. I can go to countless pubs round here and GUARANTEE many, if not most people are going to drive home well over the limit. It's a way of life in some areas. To be fair that is true and more so in many more rural areas of Europe as well. Still very bad though. I think the their way of thinking is that where they live it is so rural, the only risk is that of hitting a tree and killing themselves. As its not an urban city, there are no pavements thus people to hit and next to no other cars on the road anyway. I think that is the point Chris was making. Again I still think its very bad though.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 I don't try and live other peoples lives for them, I just accept that some people will make ill founded decisions, and they should bear the consequences if it all goes pear shaped. What those consequences are lie beyond my control, and in the hands of God and the authorities. If I spent all day and night counselling everyone I see who is about to, or actually in the process of doing something that might offend, aggrieve or potentially injure someone else I'd not get much else done I therefore accept that I am witness to lots of actions that in an ideal world might be conceived as "wrong", but in reality are someone else's problem, for the sake of expediency and my mental health Also, small communities do act in a different way to bigger ones, it's a fact of life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supra_aero Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 Has anyone else played gran turismo or any other racing video game and timed their laptimes after each can of beer to see if their reaction times/lap times get worse? I think evo magazine did an article on it. I tried it and my lap times were quite consistent to be honest I am not endorsing drink driving by any means at all, but its a fun silly experiment to try next time you are playing forza or gt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon F Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 As Chris has said, I'm sure there are hundreds of people who drive home every day over the limit and don't have accidents. Doesn't make it right, same as there of hundreds of people who feel like using the road as a racetrack and are lucky that no harm comes to anyone. Like this fella here. If it all goes wrong, the consequences are the same, someone loses their life though someone elses stupidity. I dont see any difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt H Posted July 1, 2009 Author Share Posted July 1, 2009 I think you've just highlighted exactly what Chris was saying actually. Yes, older people are more reckless. On another note, i live in the sticks too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 There seems a modern "thing" about drinking and driving. What about drinking and having a fight, using a weapon? I know people who go on pheasant shoots with maybe 30 other shooters, and take a hip flask, becoming drunk enough to be well over double the drink drive UK limit, is that terrible? In even just my father's time a policeman might suggest you drive home carefully, after witnessing obviously drunk driving, I believe we are entering an era where glass figurine perfection is sought in every action, with greed around every corner if perfection slips, in the blame and claim culture. An "accident" is now viewed as a licence to claim unbelievable amounts, to the extent a whole sub culture revolves around this, both legal and criminal. People want an admission of wrong doing not on high moral grounds, but financial ones. IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandan Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 Editted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl_S Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 Sorry to hear about your loss Sully D. I do agree with Michael though. Am curious to know what makes Matt want to know an answer to this point of law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ewen Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 I, along with countless others have lost a member of family due to a drunk driver. He would most likely have got home without incident had he not been racing a friend and clipping his car loosing control. He killed two young girls, and was sent down. Whatever the level of feelings the two victim's families have against the guy, I know he didn't set out that night to deliberately kill someone. Thats the point...it was accidental so it can never be classed as premeditated murder, as pointed out earlier. I don't, however, think the current sentencing for this type of crime is anywhere near severe enough. Like Chris, I've lived in a small community where driving home over the limit was common, almost normal. I have, and still would, do my utmost to stop a close friend or family member from driving whilst drunk if I could...and admit to turning a blind eye if they are people I don't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt H Posted July 2, 2009 Author Share Posted July 2, 2009 I, along with countless others have lost a member of family due to a drunk driver. He would most likely have got home without incident had he not been racing a friend and clipping his car loosing control. He killed two young girls, and was sent down. Whatever the level of feelings the two victim's families have against the guy, I know he didn't set out that night to deliberately kill someone. Thats the point...it was accidental so it can never be classed as premeditated murder, as pointed out earlier. I don't, however, think the current sentencing for this type of crime is anywhere near severe enough. Like Chris, I've lived in a small community where driving home over the limit was common, almost normal. I have, and still would, do my utmost to stop a close friend or family member from driving whilst drunk if I could...and admit to turning a blind eye if they are people I don't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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