SteveR Posted June 29, 2009 Share Posted June 29, 2009 The problem is finding one that's actually going to do anything beneficial. I've yet to find one that looks like it's really going to work. It could end up a lot of trial and error buying wings, flow testing them only to find that they're not doing much but adding a lot of drag then having to find another wing.... I might look at doing something bespoke if it looks like rear grip is seriously compromised, but not until then! Can't you 'borrow' one, from work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Whiffin Posted June 29, 2009 Share Posted June 29, 2009 The APR rear wings we run work well, raised mine up 3" at Brands last week testing and noticed a big difference in rear end stability in the faster stuff. Dont know about the drag part of it though, but then I've got quite a bit of power for it not to notice to much. Mind you at Snetterton the other week I was hitting 151mph down the back straight running a 4094R turbo at 1.2 bar(at a guess 600bhp), last year at Snetterton I was hitting 159mph running a 4202R turbo 1.7bar(850bhp) and race fuel and a TRD rear wing. Dont thing there's much drag going on there.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luxluc Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 The APR rear wings we run work well, raised mine up 3" at Brands last week testing and noticed a big difference in rear end stability in the faster stuff. Dont know about the drag part of it though, but then I've got quite a bit of power for it not to notice to much. Mind you at Snetterton the other week I was hitting 151mph down the back straight running a 4094R turbo at 1.2 bar(at a guess 600bhp), last year at Snetterton I was hitting 159mph running a 4202R turbo 1.7bar(850bhp) and race fuel and a TRD rear wing. Dont thing there's much drag going on there.? why did you only go on 1.2 bar on the 4094R? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Whiffin Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 why did you only go on 1.2 bar on the 4094R? Just practising so no need to push the engine to its limits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luxluc Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 Just practising so no need to push the engine to its limits. Ah Any news on your engine yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Whiffin Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 Ah Any news on your engine yet? Not yet mate, just weighing up my options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TLicense Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 The APR rear wings we run work well, raised mine up 3" at Brands last week testing and noticed a big difference in rear end stability in the faster stuff. Dont know about the drag part of it though, but then I've got quite a bit of power for it not to notice to much. Mind you at Snetterton the other week I was hitting 151mph down the back straight running a 4094R turbo at 1.2 bar(at a guess 600bhp), last year at Snetterton I was hitting 159mph running a 4202R turbo 1.7bar(850bhp) and race fuel and a TRD rear wing. Dont thing there's much drag going on there.? Raising the wing up would improve it's chances at producing something meaningful definitely. You've got a great chunk of roof doing it's best to disrupt the flow to it, so getting it above that is always going to help. However, whether the wing is generating downforce at an efficiency ratio that is suitable for the circuit your racing at is another thing. Yes it may be making say 40Kg's of downforce, but if it's also producing 40Kg's of drag then it's very difficult to say whether it's actually adding to your lap time. Then factor in that every circuit will have a different efficiency requirement. It's a lot of work to suss it all out! Your experience at Snetterton is just telling me that the TRD wing is more draggy than the APR (assuming every other factor apart from the power as you mentioned was the same) which to be honest, is no great suprise. The next time you're at Snetterton it would be interesting to see what top speed you got if you removed the wing alltogether. I honestly believe that a lot of these things are just a placebo effect, boosting confidence in the driver without physically adding downforce to the car. But at the end of the day if it drops lap-times then perhaps it is no bad thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Whiffin Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 Raising the wing up would improve it's chances at producing something meaningful definitely. You've got a great chunk of roof doing it's best to disrupt the flow to it, so getting it above that is always going to help. However, whether the wing is generating downforce at an efficiency ratio that is suitable for the circuit your racing at is another thing. Yes it may be making say 40Kg's of downforce, but if it's also producing 40Kg's of drag then it's very difficult to say whether it's actually adding to your lap time. Then factor in that every circuit will have a different efficiency requirement. It's a lot of work to suss it all out! Your experience at Snetterton is just telling me that the TRD wing is more draggy than the APR (assuming every other factor apart from the power as you mentioned was the same) which to be honest, is no great suprise. The next time you're at Snetterton it would be interesting to see what top speed you got if you removed the wing alltogether. I honestly believe that a lot of these things are just a placebo effect, boosting confidence in the driver without physically adding downforce to the car. But at the end of the day if it drops lap-times then perhaps it is no bad thing. Just remembered, my brakes were terrible at Snetterton when I was getting 159, so I was braking much earlier than the other week, so the info isn't quite as straight forward as that. All I know is it definately helps with rear end stability in the fast corners. But then again, it could be the front splitter giving it to much front end. Can I borrow your wind tunnel please? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TLicense Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 Perhaps you, Steve, Wes and any other potentially interested parties could hire the Mira full size wind tunnel for a day and go through different aero bits and see what effects they have? http://www.mira.co.uk/Facilities/Facilities_Full_Scale_Aerodynamic_Wind_Tunnel.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveR Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 Perhaps you, Steve, Wes and any other potentially interested parties could hire the Mira full size wind tunnel for a day and go through different aero bits and see what effects they have? I've spoken to MIRA before about stuff like this - acouple of month ago in fact. They were slightly bemused as to why a car club might want to visit them (I just thought it woud be interesting!) but were supportive nevertheless and were interested in giving us a mix of tech talk and hands-on stuff, if we wanted to go for it. If there is a genuine committed interest from people to do something like that, and/or this more specific wind tunnel idea, I don't mind speaking to them again and getting something set up. Ryan also comes to mind as someone who would benefit from sticking his project car in such a facility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkR Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 I would have thought that if it was in fact a placebo effect then the F1 teams wouldn't bother? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Whiffin Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 Perhaps you, Steve, Wes and any other potentially interested parties could hire the Mira full size wind tunnel for a day and go through different aero bits and see what effects they have? http://www.mira.co.uk/Facilities/Facilities_Full_Scale_Aerodynamic_Wind_Tunnel.htm Sounds expensive? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ark Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 I've spoken to MIRA before about stuff like this - acouple of month ago in fact. They were slightly bemused as to why a car club might want to visit them (I just thought it woud be interesting!) but were supportive nevertheless and were interested in giving us a mix of tech talk and hands-on stuff, if we wanted to go for it. If there is a genuine committed interest from people to do something like that, and/or this more specific wind tunnel idea, I don't mind speaking to them again and getting something set up. Ryan also comes to mind as someone who would benefit from sticking his project car in such a facility. I'm interested if they'll let us do that fan-driven horizontal skydiving thing. That looks awesome Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TLicense Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 I would have thought that if it was in fact a placebo effect then the F1 teams wouldn't bother? We spend literally many tens of thousands of pounds developing front and rear wings that produce downforce at the right efficiency level for each circuit we go to. (For reference, each front wing we test in the wind-tunnel costs about £4K to £5K to manufacture, this year we've made 17 so far) That includes measuring the forces independantly of the car forces so we can actually say whether the wing is producing dowforce at this efficiency ratio or that efficiency ratio. We then run simulations for each circuit using those ratio's and literally hundreds of other set-up changes to give us a best overall package to ensure that what we put on the car actually will give us performance gains. It's because we spend so much time and effort (and consequently lots and lots of money) that I struggle to believe that just bolting on a generic wing (I shouldn't think even APR who seem to be the best so far, design a particular profile for each and every model of car) will give the right efficiency levels for every circuit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 I'm interested if they'll let us do that fan-driven horizontal skydiving thing. That looks awesome Haringey high rise, shout something racist, job sorted, zero cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TLicense Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 Sounds expensive? I've no idea, would have to speak to Mira. For reference though we rented the Lola 50% scale wind tunnel at a discounted rate of £2500 a day. I think the normal rate is about £3700. At a guess I would say about £5K a day, so if it were something you were thinking about, you'd probably need 7 to 10 people to also be interested to make it worthwhile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted June 30, 2009 Author Share Posted June 30, 2009 I'm interested if they'll let us do that fan-driven horizontal skydiving thing. That looks awesome I have done indoor skydiving, good fun and some funny pics as a result Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TLicense Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 That must have been a bloody big fan to keep you in the air! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted June 30, 2009 Author Share Posted June 30, 2009 That must have been a bloody big fan to keep you in the air! cheeky fecker, but yeah it was Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lockys96 Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 wow, you kept this on the low pics... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lockys96 Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 http://www.timeattack.co.uk/wp-content/gallery/round-4-gallery/rich_sams_ta_rnd4_121.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveR Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 Excellent photo. But... one of the things that puts me off, is they require you to display SO many stickers. Mine isn't a dedicated track car - do the stickers come off ok?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T2 MSW Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 That looks amazing Wez. Would image the stickers come off easy enough. Hope so anyway for when my Whifbitz ones have to come off. I quite like them so think they will be staying Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Whiffin Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 Excellent photo. But... one of the things that puts me off, is they require you to display SO many stickers. Mine isn't a dedicated track car - do the stickers come off ok?? Yep, no probs there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveR Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 cool Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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