G20 protests

[extendor]

I am real thanks. At what point in my post did I say:

 

A: The policeman was right to hit him

B: He shouldn't face any action

C: The guy deserved it

D: Any of the other stuff you spouted

 

Discussions aren't a case of your point vs everyone elses, get some perspective on things before you start insulting me.

 

"as if he was trying to wind them up" does not actually say what you listed A - D but it does smack of condoning them getting their own back like kids in a playground and running and whacking him from behind. Did you keep it deliberately vague so you did not have to come down on one side of the fence or the other. Do you support the action of the plod or are you against it.

 

I would be interested to hear whether or not the police training manual (or whetever it is) states that belting someone from behind for walking nonchalantly is an accepted tactics.

 

I can see the wider implications, can you? Discuss.

[extendor]

And what if Mr Tomlinson had been seen a while earlier at the front of the crowd of protestors joining in the 'riot' wearing a National Front T-shirt????

 

As we live in a country with a judicial system that says people are innocent until proven guilty, I'm still going to wait for the outcome of the IPCC and inquest and any court cases before passing judgement.

 

That short clip of video does appear to show something very wrong..... but its not the whole story.

 

We dont know the whole story but we do know he was walking away from someone who is supposed to be charged with upholding the law and who for whatever reason then belted the bloke across the back of the legs and proceded to push him down.

 

If I had done that to any of you I would expect any mitigation I offered in court to be unacceptable and then the full weight of the law would apply for a cowardly and brutal assault.

[Mike]

And what if Mr Tomlinson had been seen a while earlier at the front of the crowd of protestors joining in the 'riot' wearing a National Front T-shirt????

 

BNP/National Front/Nazi Party... it's all the same to me

[Scoboblio]

"as if he was trying to wind them up" does not actually say what you listed A - D but it does smack of condoning them getting their own back like kids in a playground and running and whacking him from behind. Did you keep it deliberately vague so you did not have to come down on one side of the fence or the other. Do you support the action of the plod or are you against it.

 

I would be interested to hear whether or not the police training manual (or whetever it is) states that belting someone from behind for walking nonchalantly is an accepted tactics.

 

I can see the wider implications, can you? Discuss.

 

Don't patronise me. I don't have to come down on either side of the fence simply because the braying mob of tabloid readers like doing it - I don't jump to conclusions when not in full posession of the facts.

 

I said 'it does seem strange', I didn't say 'the police should be allowed to beat up who they like', because that's just not right.

 

To me, the guy looks like he's acting strangely in what is obviously such a tense situation. Why that is, I don't know. Why the policeman clobbered him one when he didn't seem to be posing any kind of threat, I don't know that either.

 

I'll wait until I know more before making a judgement thanks.

[Gaz6002]

BNP/National Front/Nazi Party... it's all the same to me

 

You're beginning to sound like a racistist.

[Gerry]

I'll wait until I know more before making a judgement thanks.

 

Seems a sensible quote.

 

As I get older, it seems to me that many situations like this fall into a "grey" area.

On first sight they can look like a "black & white" case, but when all the facts are known sometimes it's not as easy as that.

 

Reminds me of a brilliant TV advert for a newspaper, which showed a youth running down the street trying to catch a granny with a handbag (obviously going to mug her) then the overview of a bit of building falling down and him running to push her out of the way !

 

G

[extendor]

Is there an excuse for a police officer coming up behind a member of the public and clobbering them.

 

If there is then I would like to discuss those reasons and the circumstances for that to be acceptable in the context of the video we have all seen.

[Paul]

Maybe he pushed him because a bit was falling off a building and he did it to get him out of the way (honest your honour;))

[Shadow Beast]

i have not gone through the whole thread but has anyone raised the point, what the hell he was doing at the front line of a riot?

 

On the radio yesterday his partner came on saying he was only trying to get home, if thats the case why take a route that puts you where it did him, I know personally that if my walk home took me through the front line of a riot and i did not want to get involved i would take a different route home, as a few others on here have said it did look like his attitude was pfft so what I'll walk where i want.

 

Yes the heart attack was a terrible thing to happen, but.......... walking past the front line of a riot that is turning nasty, you are going to end up in a situation that you know full well could of been avoided.

 

Richie

[Gerry]

Maybe he pushed him because a bit was falling off a building and he did it to get him out of the way (honest your honour;))

 

[Mike]

i have not gone through the whole thread but has anyone raised the point, what the hell he was doing at the front line of a riot?

 

Minding his own business.

 

as a few others on here have said it did look like his attitude was pfft so what I'll walk where i want.

 

He can.

[Charlotte]

I hope they're doing all they can to get to the bottom of this.

 

I definitely wouldn't like to see a member of my own family being treated like that it's quite horrible to watch especially as he's now dead.

[Shadow Beast]

Minding his own business.

 

Sorry just dont buy that, i dont care who you are, you do not mind your own business past the front police line of a riot.

 

 

 

He can.

 

wishes now he had probably not done so.

[DODGYDODDS]

They'll get away with it, it will be easy after the charles demenezes shooting, cover up

[Pete]

i have not gone through the whole thread but has anyone raised the point, what the hell he was doing at the front line of a riot?

It was a riot now was it?

[supra_aero]

i have not gone through the whole thread but has anyone raised the point, what the hell he was doing at the front line of a riot?

 

 

I walked through the "riot" (it wasn't a riot during most of the office hours) as per my previous post, just to see what was going on with my own eyes.

 

Given the fact that afterall, the unfortunate guy who died did sell the newspapers we read, I guess he just wanted to see it all with his own eyes (as did I, working in banking myself).

 

I don't think walking through should have been an issue if he was indeed going home. And even he wasn't going home and wanted to look around - what's the harm in that?

[imi]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7997990.stm

 

Makes you wonder.

 

Are they just plain and simple incompetent?

OR

Are they trying to cover things up?

[extendor]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7997990.stm

 

Makes you wonder.

 

Are they just plain and simple incompetent?

OR

Are they trying to cover things up?

 

 

I would hope they are just being thorough. A coppers career, the publics trust of the police and the cause (contributory) of a man's death are in the balance.

 

One very unsettling thing I did read over the weekend was that TSG officers have been known to swap shoulder numbers prior to going into these sorts of situations so they can argue mistaken identity if accused by a member of public (endearingly called MOP). At least this officer did not have a shoulder number (or his face visible) so it looks like he is in trouble for that at the very least.

[dangerous brain]

He was having a heart attack and apparently smelled a little of alchohol which for most could probably be a bit disorientating. I've been "discussing" this on another forum with a riot trained police officer lol.

[extendor]

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/4/20090414/video/vuk-new-video-footage-exposes-g20-police-49bfa63.html

 

Seems like another police officer has shown how tough he is. This time its hitting a woman literally half his size with a stick across the legs and causing her to fall over. I suppose at least this time he was provoked by her standing in front of him.

 

The more I read of this and the more I learn about the training of the police and their home office approved tactics the more obvious it becomes that the police see themselves as Judge Dredd. Shortly they will be judge jury and executioner. If you give them guns then the latter will most certainly be the case. Society has to say enough is enough and the police have to show they have some control over themselves.

[Kranz]

The more I read of this and the more I learn about the training of the police and their home office approved tactics the more obvious it becomes that the police see themselves as Judge Dredd.

 

That's a rather 'all encompassing' statement. You're prepared to judge approximately 136,000 people based on the reported actions of 2 or 3???????

 

My doctor missed the fact that I had pneaumonia, so I think all doctors should be sacked. Is that also a fair conclusion?

 

Shortly they will be judge jury and executioner.

 

Where's your basis for this rubbish?

 

If you give them guns then the latter will most certainly be the case.

 

And again, where's your basis for this crap? Do you actually know what you're talking about?

 

Society has to say enough is enough and the police have to show they have some control over themselves.

 

Society needs to realise that leaving their kids to fend for themselves to run around the streets in ferral mobs is not the way society is meant to be. Society needs to talk to their neighbours, have a sense of community spirit. Society needs to stop kids joining gangs, carrying knives and killing each other.

 

And how do you propose the police show they have control over themselves??? I'd love to hear about your master plan.

[extendor]

Are you saying these are not Home Office Approved Tactics?

I believe the officers have to account for the force they use and in my opinion based on the video I have seen both officers attacked people using unreasonable force.

 

You are familiar with Judge Dredd I assume. Basically he was responsible for seeing the law carried out. He is a fictional mobile judge, jury and when needed executioner.

In this country we have a different system. The policeman takes the law breaker to a trial of his peers and they judge him and the judge sets the sentence.

 

Now you say why would a policeman not be an executioner. If you give a person a stick and say use that with reasonable force then he will use it rightly or wrongly as he sees fit. If he gets caught for doing something wrong with that stick its too late, he has still used it in anger or frustration or just because he got a kick out of it. Now give that same person a gun and the same rules. What would happen. Maybe some scrotes deserve to die in his opinion in the same way some women and men deserve a good thrashing to the ground with a stick.

 

What stops that person from doing that. Training or personality or fear of reprisal or just plain good old professionalism.

 

Onto your last point. Don’t get me started about the reckless and feckless in our society. I know as well as you do all about these issues but the fact is this topic is about certain members of the police force. I also think it is important to say again ‘certain members of the police force’.

[Kranz]

Are you saying these are not Home Office Approved Tactics?

 

I can't comment on whjat tactics TSG use as each force trains their PSU (riot) units differently. I wasn't taught specific tactics regarding pushing people...... but then they don't need to teach you how to push people, or how to swing a baton for that mater. As far as I know the two handed palm heel strike to the chest is just that. Yes, its 'HO approved' which hopefully will please you as you like to go on about it.

Once PSU's are deployed in level 2 (Fireproof overalls, Nato helmets, body armour and long batons and are given the order to advance and clear the street than that is what is done. A dispersal warning is given for people to move away, and there may be a police 'show of force' to encourage those still remaining to move away..... a final warning if you like. If anyone remains or gets in the way as the unit advances then they will be moved.

 

I believe the officers have to account for the force they use and in my opinion based on the video I have seen both officers attacked people using unreasonable force.

 

Yes, they do. That is your opinion and you are entittled to it. As I have said before, I wasn't there and I am not in posession of the full facts so will reserve my judgement until a later time when I know what happened.

 

You are familiar with Judge Dredd I assume.

 

Yes, but I gave up reading comics when I grew up.

 

Basically he was responsible for seeing the law carried out. He is a fictional mobile judge, jury and when needed executioner.

In this country we have a different system. The policeman takes the law breaker to a trial of his peers and they judge him and the judge sets the sentence.

 

You forgot the role of the CPS. They normally drop most cases before court as they don't think they'll win, no matter how strong the evidence. Yes, I'm a little cynical, but after doing maybe months of work on a job its a little galling for a CPS lawyer to say that there'll be no court case as they don't like the look of something. Where's the justice in that?

 

Now you say why would a policeman not be an executioner. If you give a person a stick and say use that with reasonable force then he will use it rightly or wrongly as he sees fit. If he gets caught for doing something wrong with that stick its too late, he has still used it in anger or frustration or just because he got a kick out of it. Now give that same person a gun and the same rules. What would happen. Maybe some scrotes deserve to die in his opinion in the same way some women and men deserve a good thrashing to the ground with a stick.

 

What stops that person from doing that. Training or personality or fear of reprisal or just plain good old professionalism.

 

You're tarring way to many people with the same brush and jumping to ridiculus conclusions. Almost as comical as saying ALL police are racist after watching The Secret Policeman. Do you think that all my colleagues and I think about is 'popping caps in crim's arses'??? Believe me I'd lobve up to 2 years off work, but the potential jail time does make me thing its not worth it

 

Onto your last point. Don’t get me started about the reckless and feckless in our society. I know as well as you do all about these issues but the fact is this topic is about certain members of the police force. I also think it is important to say again ‘certain members of the police force’.

 

Well how about keeping your points to those 'certain members' and not going casting wild accusations about the majority, that time and again put their safety and lives on the line for the people of this country.

[extendor]

"Well how about keeping your points to those 'certain members' and not going casting wild accusations about the majority, that time and again put their safety and lives on the line for the people of this country."

 

Well said. Of course it can be galling to have everyone tarred with the same brush. Almost the same as saying because that person was in the crowd they are a troublemaker.

 

I would also like to add on the point about Dredd. You pointed this forum to another forum frequented by police officers after that attack on the girl in the Seattle police station. I read the particular thread you pointed us to and it was disgusting. Serving police officers saying what they would have done/liked to have done if the camera was not there.

 

Having also read about tactical officers in the press allegedly routinely swapping shoulder numbers to disguise themselves in case of any trouble does not show the police as a whole in a very good light.

 

Yes it is down to a few, as it always is but at the end of the day we need the police and they need the public trust.

 

You mentioned what is my big plan. Its easy. Its starts with the rank and file police themselves not tolerating such behaviour and being seen to come out against such actions on the basis of being a member of society first and a policeman second.

[JustGav]

 

I reckon that is what people want from police.... I've not paid ANY attention to the G20 riot stuff so I have no clue on the events. Police once again seem to get a kicking whether they do something or not and yet people will bitch and moan about them for being/not being somewhere. If people disagree soo wildly with the police why not join up and try implement changes from the inside?