Induction Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 Hi everyone Just returned from a weekend at the Nurburgring - fantastic fun, good footage from the onboard camera low down in the front wing and looking back past the rear wing, etc. (great view looking back at an NXS as I pulled away from him) but I'm really cheesed off with how the car handled. I'm running Eibach springs with KYB AGX shocks (which are 4 way adjustable and have improved the handling a fair bit) but the front tyres are hitting the arch liners. After a couple of laps the top of the liners had completely worn through, so had the cable loom tray above the drivers arch liner, exposing the actual loom. Even some of the wires had been stripped of their sheath! I had to do some running repairs with the good old trusty gaffer tape and I was really worried about moisture getting into the wiring. I had to repair about six individual wires and cover them in heat shrink. The ABS and TRC light had come on but after repairing the wiring it was all okay - very worrying times! Other than the above, the car performed beautifully but it was so frustrating to have the tyres ripping the arch liners every time I tried to push on. I've decided that I'm going to sort the problem once and for all and get the car handling properly so that around something like the Nurburgring the handling matches the performance. The problem also occurs under normal road conditions as well (although mildy) when travelling fairly quickly and hitting a mid-corner bump or going through a dip and catching a bump at the bottom. It's doing my head in! What kind of setup did the Supra have that holds the record for the 'ring? Is getting my car to handle like that achievable, or did it have some custom, mega-expensive parts bolted on? How come I saw other cars that seemed to also have pretty low setups bombing round and commiting to corners that were giving me big problems? Are the Eibach springs too soft or just crap? I'm really fed up with the problem and would appreciate any advice on what kind of route to take with this. Thanks Jules Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulrenn Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 Hi Jules I just got back this PM from the 'Ring. Didn't hear anything from you, did you forget my number?! I saw one UK registered car, a dark red colour. Looked like there was something broken on the front right of the front bumper? I heard the AGX shocks were not up to much, and obviously not a good match with the Eibachs... If I were to change my suspension, I'd either get the Toyota/Bilsteins (stock ride height, very good) or go the whole hog and get a set of Teins. There were dozens of Toyotas there mate, several German and Swiss registered Supras. You should have tracked us down edit: You can contact http://www.racelogic.co.uk to ask about the Blitz Supra specification. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith C Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 Are you sure the Eibach/Bilsteins is stock ride height, as mine seems lower... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GavinL Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 Originally posted by Keith C Are you sure the Eibach/Bilsteins is stock ride height, as mine seems lower... Eibachs are lowering springs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lee_kelsey Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 Originally posted by Keith C Are you sure the Eibach/Bilsteins is stock ride height, as mine seems lower... Mine is aso, considerably lower than stock! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam W Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 You really want to talk to Chris Wilson about this. He does engines and all sorts, but his speciality is suspension setups. I know he has a setup for sale which he designed and had built for the Supra, but I'm sure he'd be able to sort something to suit anything from hard-core trackdays to a slight grip improvement. It definitely sounds like your spring/damper combination is badly matched though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doughie Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 Originally posted by Keith C Are you sure the Eibach/Bilsteins is stock ride height, as mine seems lower... Eibachs lower the rear about 1 inch over UK-spec stock, and about 1.5 inches at the front compared to UK-spec stock. The Bilsteins you've got in your motor Keef are factory-option Toyota Bilsteins. very hard to track down believe me !! (but i got a rather good deal on those particular ones...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Induction Posted September 25, 2002 Author Share Posted September 25, 2002 Paul Yeah, that was me you spotted with the split in the front bumper - had some bad luck at the beginning of the trip. At about 3.30 am as I was on my way to pick up my mate who was coming with me and I hit a Badger that shot out of the hedgerow. He broke the bumper, ruined the active front spoiler (which I managed to get back into the normal position) and snapped a mounting on the intercooler! I thought the trip was over before it had even begun but everything seemed to work fine (with the help of some cable ties applied under torch light!) My phone decided it wasn't going to give any signal as soon as we got into France even though I double checked it was set up for international use, so I tried to call you on my mates phone but his wouldn't connect with your number for some reason. The trip was fantastic and I'll definitely be going next year, bigger, better and stronger! I've got some decent footage from the little bullet-cam and I'll try and put a couple of clips up for download asap. As far as my suspension goes, I'm really pi**ed off with it - it pretty much ruined the track time so I'm going to sort it once and for all. I've heard the Tein setups are pretty good for track use and are fully adjustable. That might be the way to go. Jules Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulrenn Posted September 25, 2002 Share Posted September 25, 2002 Hi Jules Argh! Bummer about not meeting up...I was actually in the "ticket office" car park, right in front of you for a few minutes...mine was the black UK-registered car with green stripe down the middle. I was gonna knock on your window...but for some reason didn't, too excited looking at the other machines I think...sorry 'bout that! You can rename yourself Badger-Sandwich to keep Hedgehog happy Try and get some Bilstein shocks and keep the Eibach spring, I think its the shocks that are the problem...Eibach make good stuff generally, unless you've been given a set for different car/model, check the box if you still have it... Edit: Oh, Tein shocks go for about $1000 in the USA...not sure if there is a European distributor somewhere? I can find out for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lee_kelsey Posted September 25, 2002 Share Posted September 25, 2002 Jules, The cam you speak of, is it a small thing you can mount outside the vehicle easily? If so I would be very interested in seeing some footage and hearing your comments on its performance. Cheers Lee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Induction Posted September 25, 2002 Author Share Posted September 25, 2002 Paul So close and yet so far! Never mind, I'm already planning for next year so we might be able to get some of the others interested and get a snake of Supras going round the Nurburgring! Lee I've put up a couple of small clips of some of the shots it got. One is a front view from inside the passenger intake on the front spoiler and the other shows a view looking through the rear spoiler from one side of the car. It's a cracking little camera about 3 inches long and about 3/4 of an inch in diameter. It gave some fantastic pictures when it was mounted in various locations on the car. I held it in the different places with strong velcro which worked perfectly - it stood up to 170 without any problems. The tiny mic that came with it is pretty good too. It gave some good sound from wherever it was situated. Putting it in the engine bay sounded pretty good. For the rear view I put it near the exhaust but I think it got overloaded a bit. The rear view clip shows an NSX approaching behind. This was not far into my second lap and I was making it an exploratory one to try and get some info on the circuit so wasn't really going for it, but when he tried to make a move coming out of a corner I decided to show him a bit of Supra power on the straight! And I had some shit fuel in the tank after filling up at some station in the middle of nowhere before I got to the circuit. I slowed and let him past after that, he obviously had more knowledge of the circuit and with me ripping the arches out I wasn't going to spoil his fun - I wouldn't be happy if somebody did it to me. If you want any more info on the camera let me know. When I get time I'll put up some more clips - I did a lap when it was raining and the circuit was covered in water - tail went out a few times, great fun! Front view Rear view Jules Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lee_kelsey Posted September 25, 2002 Share Posted September 25, 2002 The quality is amazing Jules, not sure what I was expecting, but its definately a lot better than I thought it would be! Can I assume that the device you use, is a colour bullet cam? which I am again assuming you would need to plug into a normal video camera? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Induction Posted September 25, 2002 Author Share Posted September 25, 2002 Lee Yeah, it's a bullet cam, looks a like a tube of lippy but a bit bigger! I was also surprised by the quality. It does produce cracking pictures considering it's size. Also, don't forget that you're seeing an image that has been encoded for the web and therefore contains compression artefacts. I bought the kit off the web a couple of days before I went to the 'ring from a place called rfconcepts. It was about 150 quid as a package which included: camera, permanent mount, velcro mount, battery holder, mic, cables, a little sunhood which screws on the front and a carry case for the whole lot. The website for rfconcepts is http://www.rfconcepts.co.uk/helmet_cameras.htm I bought the Camera 3 package which is the hi-res camera, worth it for that bit extra I think. The cameras are fully waterproof and I certainly had no problems with it whilst on the track or hammering back up the French and Belgian motorways in the rain. I recorded the output on a Sony DV10 which is a DVCAM walkman with a built in LCD screen - perfect for setting up the alignment of the camera. You can record onto a camcorder but it needs to have an AV in socket on it, some do, some don't. It will more or less permanently reside in the front intake from now on (after the insurance company take care of the Badger damage!) and I'll be recording various events etc., from the great view it gives from down there. Jules Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted September 25, 2002 Share Posted September 25, 2002 Originally posted by Induction Hi everyone Just returned from a weekend at the Nurburgring - fantastic fun, good footage from the onboard camera low down in the front wing and looking back past the rear wing, etc. (great view looking back at an NXS as I pulled away from him) but I'm really cheesed off with how the car handled. I'm running Eibach springs with KYB AGX shocks (which are 4 way adjustable and have improved the handling a fair bit) but the front tyres are hitting the arch liners. After a couple of laps the top of the liners had completely worn through, so had the cable loom tray above the drivers arch liner, exposing the actual loom. Even some of the wires had been stripped of their sheath! I had to do some running repairs with the good old trusty gaffer tape and I was really worried about moisture getting into the wiring. I had to repair about six individual wires and cover them in heat shrink. The ABS and TRC light had come on but after repairing the wiring it was all okay - very worrying times! Other than the above, the car performed beautifully but it was so frustrating to have the tyres ripping the arch liners every time I tried to push on. I've decided that I'm going to sort the problem once and for all and get the car handling properly so that around something like the Nurburgring the handling matches the performance. The problem also occurs under normal road conditions as well (although mildy) when travelling fairly quickly and hitting a mid-corner bump or going through a dip and catching a bump at the bottom. It's doing my head in! What kind of setup did the Supra have that holds the record for the 'ring? Is getting my car to handle like that achievable, or did it have some custom, mega-expensive parts bolted on? How come I saw other cars that seemed to also have pretty low setups bombing round and commiting to corners that were giving me big problems? Are the Eibach springs too soft or just crap? I'm really fed up with the problem and would appreciate any advice on what kind of route to take with this. Thanks Jules We discussed this in person, but for the record: The Eibachs on YOUR car are too low for their spring rate. You can keep the same ride height (which is too low for good suspension geometry really) and keep the tyres off the arch liners by fitting much stiffer springs. Dampers (shocks) will only affect how fast the transient change into maximum roll occurs, in a fast steering input scenario like a sudden light swerve, stiffer bum settings aon the front shocks may delay roll long enough to stop rubbing, in a fast hard driven sweeping bend the roll will establish after a second max, and the rubbing will start. Stiffer springs still though will be mismatched to your new shocks (should I say this.... hell, gotta tell it like it is... they are pretty horrible things, not a patch on the European stuff, or Jap made under licence of European companies stuff). You really need to address the problem with matched springs and shocks like my custom Koni Sport based kit, Ohlins kit, or OE Toyota Bilstein stuff. It's expensive though. The only viable fix keeping the hardware you have is for me to make up some custom conical (progressive rate) closed cell polyuretahne foam bump stops to go around the damer shafts. Thes will add spring rate at the extreme end of the suspension travel. I have the details of the damper shaft diameter still, but need to do some measurements and calculations to optimese the bump stop length and cone angle. That will be cheapest, my set up will be the better option :-) IMO Tein are utter disastrous junk, i have skipped more tein stuff than any other damper on imports. After a few miles they wear their piston rod to body bushings then the shaft seals leak. They have bizarre bump to rebound ratios, seemingly aimed at lifting inside back wheels to aid "drifting" at low speeds, similarly the extended length of the rear dampers always seems far too little, probably for similar reasons. The only Jap dampers that seem really good are the Jap licence built Toyota Bilsteins and the similarly licnced Ohlins, which is excellent stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Induction Posted September 25, 2002 Author Share Posted September 25, 2002 Chris I'm going to have a good chat with you about this stuff when I bring the car to you for a service. I'm really fed up with the current setup and don't really feel like trying to make a bad job good so it seems like I'll be investigating the route you describe of a totally new setup. I just want something that can handle the corners properly. I'll speak to you soon. Jules Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulrenn Posted September 26, 2002 Share Posted September 26, 2002 Originally posted by Chris Wilson IMO Tein are utter disastrous junk, i have skipped more tein stuff than any other damper on imports. After a few miles they wear their piston rod to body bushings then the shaft seals leak. They have bizarre bump to rebound ratios, seemingly aimed at lifting inside back wheels to aid "drifting" at low speeds, similarly the extended length of the rear dampers always seems far too little, probably for similar reasons. The only Jap dampers that seem really good are the Jap licence built Toyota Bilsteins and the similarly licnced Ohlins, which is excellent stuff. Wow, I'm very surprised to hear you say Tein is junk. I haven't used them myself, but I know many, many people who have been very happy with them - although that experience is mainly not in the Supra world...perhaps the Supra application is not as perfect as their other offerings. Tein coilovers are supposed to be one of the best off-the-shelf suspension setups! Was it the coilover kits you were discarding? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted September 26, 2002 Share Posted September 26, 2002 Originally posted by paulrenn Wow, I'm very surprised to hear you say Tein is junk. I haven't used them myself, but I know many, many people who have been very happy with them - although that experience is mainly not in the Supra world...perhaps the Supra application is not as perfect as their other offerings. Tein coilovers are supposed to be one of the best off-the-shelf suspension setups! Was it the coilover kits you were discarding? Apart from some Tein uniball top mounts all their stuff has proven rubbish to me, using a shock dyno. Bizarre settings, poor build quality, blah blah. I must have thrown 15 sets away that came off low mileage cars (and bear in mind the tein isn't OE, so the dampers had done less than the odometer mileage) that were leaking, knocking, partially seized and just generally buggered. I would never dream of using them myself, although the springs they use may be OK. Doing long term spring testing is a PITA and a known quality spring so cheap as to be not worthwhile to me to find out what they are like. All I can say about Tein is it seems cheap, but like brakes, wheels, tyres, clutches et cetera, with shocks you get JUST what you pay for! All IMO, but suspension set up and development is my business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulrenn Posted September 26, 2002 Share Posted September 26, 2002 Hi Chris I'm not disagreeing with you, but price-wise, Tein is right at the top of the off-the-shelf offerings. How do you rate other coilver sets, have you experience of the HKS one? By the way, how much do you charge for your Supra setup? Suitable for road and track? Adjustable ride height and damping? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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