RICHARDA Posted March 27, 2005 Share Posted March 27, 2005 I have found myself in the unfortunate situation whereby my 2nd turbo is not making boost and is dead. With this in mind I am most likely going down the route of Stage 3 hybrids (Turbo Dynamics) using my UK's. PITA as the car has "only" 85k but has been v.well looked after since I have owned it. Due to a strict budget I will not be going down the single route and I also want to retain the stock look. If anyone who has experience of "hybrids" (stage 3 or otherwise) I would be most grateful for ANY thoughts you may care to share in my hour of need. Thank you very much Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeordieSteve Posted March 27, 2005 Share Posted March 27, 2005 Hybrids aren't as cheap as you'd think. Just finished my upgrade and had to go for hybrids, FMIC, bigger injectors, resistor pack, better plugs, fuel pump etc. to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted March 27, 2005 Share Posted March 27, 2005 Steve, Richard's car is a UK spec so it already has decent injectors and fuel pump etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeordieSteve Posted March 27, 2005 Share Posted March 27, 2005 Ok then, that keeps the costs down a little but not a huge amount. Set yourself up a little spreadsheet. Supprised me how much I've spent recently Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dude Posted March 27, 2005 Share Posted March 27, 2005 Hybrids = waste of time and money IMO and the EGT prob when running stock based twins on a stock manifold will never go away , if you wanna know what stage 3(or 4) hybrids 'dont' perform like then ask Gavin L . Put on a stock No 2 and crank the boost up a bit Dude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heckler Posted March 27, 2005 Share Posted March 27, 2005 I've never had over 900 degs with my hybrids at 1.4bar - mind you, i dont know what singles run at... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnK Posted March 27, 2005 Share Posted March 27, 2005 so far ive not seen over 800 on my single. although its not mapped 100% yet, but the EGT's seem a lot lower than when I had the twins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeordieSteve Posted March 27, 2005 Share Posted March 27, 2005 To be fair I can totally see the point of hybrids. I'm 23 so my insurance is bad enough and it's an everyday car so a big single is a no no. I can understand the people who slag off hybrids coz they tend to be the people who own/sell big singles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dude Posted March 27, 2005 Share Posted March 27, 2005 To be fair I can totally see the point of hybrids. I'm 23 so my insurance is bad enough and it's an everyday car so a big single is a no no. I can understand the people who slag off hybrids coz they tend to be the people who own/sell big singles IMO you'll get the same performance upping the boost and fitting an ERL or similar kit , failing that spend £375 on a NOS kit Dude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeordieSteve Posted March 27, 2005 Share Posted March 27, 2005 Not really usefull when you've f**ked a turbo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dude Posted March 27, 2005 Share Posted March 27, 2005 Not really usefull when you've f**ked a turbo A stock turbo aint £1200 ++++ though , a rebuild is not too dear or go 2nd hand Dude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeordieSteve Posted March 27, 2005 Share Posted March 27, 2005 Hmmm starting to get a bit gutted. Do you honestly think I'll get the same performance out of my hybrids as I would from my normal Jap specs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted March 27, 2005 Share Posted March 27, 2005 Do you honestly think I'll get the same performance out of my hybrids as I would from my normal Jap specs? You should get more power and more reliably. You'll get slower spool up as well though. I suppose having steel turbines it'll be more like a UK car: lose some responsiveness, gain some top end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarkey Posted March 27, 2005 Share Posted March 27, 2005 Can someone please explain to me .. in english & not in tech speak: a) Why do Hybrid turbos (irrespective of which stage) suffer EGT problems ? b) Am I correct in assuming that stock turbos also have this issue ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dude Posted March 27, 2005 Share Posted March 27, 2005 Hmmm starting to get a bit gutted. Do you honestly think I'll get the same performance out of my hybrids as I would from my normal Jap specs? You will get the same sort of performance but the Hybrids will be a lot stronger , i spoke to the guy that used to supply a couple of well known traders with 'Stage 3' Hybrids , he informed me that they were never developed to be a performance upgrade per say more of an improvement , he explained that due to the design of the manifold tryiong to get a bang per buck increase from a stock based system by redesigning the turbos was a waste of time , theres cars in the states now running 11's on stock hi mileage turbos !!! you work it out , all the cars ive driven with stage 3 hybrids have MORE lag and a LOT less power than a 67 and 61 Precision turbo so i really dont see the advantage , ive never rated hybrids at all and would never recomend them as a perf upgrade , at the end of the day the if you wanna go fast go single the over complicated switching system on the stock turbos is only gonna get worse as more VSV's and piping and wiring etc wear out , all this is gone when going single and turbo swaps take an hour not a weekend !!!! Dude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dude Posted March 27, 2005 Share Posted March 27, 2005 Can someone please explain to me .. in english & not in tech speak: a) Why do Hybrid turbos (irrespective of which stage) suffer EGT problems ? b) Am I correct in assuming that stock turbos also have this issue ? Its the whole system , its very restrictive . Dude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terawua Posted March 27, 2005 Share Posted March 27, 2005 um. so what dort of EGT's are to be expected from the Vortex budget single kit?.... is the use of the stock manifold a problem in this case, or does the increased size of the turbine wheels mean they are mire efficient at producing the boost.. as I understand it the stockers or indeed hybrids just start making the air very hot and not increasing the boost any aftera certain point is that right? BTW (Terry) I am very keen on the budget single kit, but I can't afford the ancillaries to run it at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonball Posted March 28, 2005 Share Posted March 28, 2005 Can someone please explain to me .. in english & not in tech speak: a) Why do Hybrid turbos (irrespective of which stage) suffer EGT problems ? b) Am I correct in assuming that stock turbos also have this issue ? As Dude says - restrictive and compounded by manufactured effeciency - but high EGT's not always the case When pushed beyond their performance threshold - too much hot air trying to get through restrictive space (bit like some of the comments from Capt Mannering and Pike!) To answer the question BTW I suffered really high EGT's (1000 degrees +) prior to my stock tubbies going - a combination (I believe) - of too high boost and poor fuelling - DOH) The hybrids I had fitting were (again as Dude explained) ‘replacements’ rather than upgrades – and as Jake summised although with the larger diameter and steel blades it did improve top HP and torque (but did suffer the UK spec 'lag' not associated with the ceramic blades) These hybrids however gave me readings of up to 950 degrees at 1.4 boost – too high IMHO These are the not exactly the same as ‘Hecklers’ and 'Ash's' hybrids BTW – as his had a larger wastegate manufactured – neither of who has experienced any EGT problems - so one cab see that reasonable EGT's ARE possible I am discussing manufacturing with some really great guys to see if we can improve on the performance – without the corresponding trade off lost it to heat No magic wand – they feel confident - lets see what comes to pass! Singles will always be more efficient and personally I would always go single if I could – but if not possible I am not as ‘anal’ as some people who obviously have vested personal interests in recommending otherwise! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terry S Posted March 28, 2005 Share Posted March 28, 2005 The Housings on the stock turbos are an issue. This wasnt intended as a single vs Hybrids, I just wanted know how Paul has addressed the EGT issue with hybrids as stated. FYI John K on here has the budget kit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terry S Posted March 28, 2005 Share Posted March 28, 2005 so far ive not seen over 800 on my single. although its not mapped 100% yet, but the EGT's seem a lot lower than when I had the twins. This is with the budget singke kit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Class One Posted March 28, 2005 Share Posted March 28, 2005 Sorry not being a techie but reading a very interesting thread can someone explain EGT please? (sorry just worked it out doh!!! Exhaust Gas Temps silly me!!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnK Posted March 28, 2005 Share Posted March 28, 2005 Exhaust gas temp - over 1000c is bad, below 950 is better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dude Posted March 28, 2005 Share Posted March 28, 2005 These hybrids however gave me readings of up to 950 degrees at 1.4 boost – too high IMHO - but i do have personal questions about the thickness of the I/C that i was using actually resticting airflow and core effeciency (but that's another question) ! Strange that you question the efficiency of the IC Paul because it will not make a dramatic effect on the EGT readings , the temp ranges are so far apart, the other reason i find it strange that you question the efficiency of the IC is that you have seen how well it works on a very hot day (same as fitted to my car at TOTB) and same as fitted to Ashleys car which you say does not suffer from high EGT's , the larger WG is not there to stop high EGT's its there to stop boost spikes and regulate boost better . For everyones info the FMIC Paul was using was 600X300X100 twin core same as in my slow old car and the firm i use supply Lotus amongst others with coolers Dude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonball Posted March 28, 2005 Share Posted March 28, 2005 For anyone requiring some information on turbos (and other bits) and how they work etc - can i suggest a little reading here http://www.jumptronix.com/2g_go_faster/Reference/Reference_Material.htm Turbo part summarised by the following turbo info courtesy of Dennis Grant 1997 For those of you who may have missed a part of the "Turbo Fundamentals" series, or those who may not have wanted to sift through all my Neverending Sentances here's a summary of the last week's posts, plus the odd important point that may have slipped through the cracks last week. 1) Turbos reclaim energy that would otherwise been dumped overboard in the form of heat, by using exhaust gasses to spin a turbine, which in turn spins a compressor, which compresses the intake air. 2) Compressed intake air makes more power, because it allows you to burn more fuel per power stroke of the engine, and because it helps scavenge the engine. (The new, compressed, intake charge "blows out" the remaining exhaust gasses) 3) The amount of work done by a turbo's turbine depends on the amount of gas flow through it, and the pressure differential across it. 4) You can improve the turbine pressure differential by installing an exhaust system with a higher flow capacity than stock. It's impossible to have "too much" exhaust flow downstram of the turbo. 5) The intake compressor works best when it has been specifically sized for an engine's flow requirements and boost levels. 6) The best way to choose a compressor wheel and housing is to call the manufacturer of the turbo, and answer all their questions. 7) Intercoolers are our friends. They redunce the temperature of the compressed intake charge after the compressor has heated it. 8) An intercooler is only as good as the air flow into it ***and out of it*** 9) Wastgates limit boost levels by acting as a "rev limiter" for the turbo. 10) "Boost creep" indicates a wastegate that is too small. 11) High boost motors require good ignition systems. Most top end stumbles and misses are ignition problems. 12) There's no substitute for a day on the engine dyno. There, that should about do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandan Posted March 28, 2005 Share Posted March 28, 2005 I've never seen above 800 degrees on one of the J spec Supes we have which is running "hybrids" (steel turbined jap replacements) at 1.3bar maximum. This is with stock IC, 440's, a Walbro and no water injection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts