DaveK Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 I remember my first trip to the USA in 90. Spent 4 weeks there on the east coast. I will never forget the divided society between black and white. Every holiday apartment block, bar, restaurant etc was either black or white, integration was almost nil. The following year I was in South Africa for 3 weeks (91). I didnt see one incident of racial hatred the whole time. On my last night there i was playing in a pool competition with a Zulu, an Asian, a RSA white and myself in the doubles final. Everyone got on fine in Harvey J Beans The media at the time was still highlighting everything it could to make RSA look the racists and create a smoke screen for the USA. If a black man got shot in Durban it was "a black man was shot in Durban last night", the news didnt tell you it was his brother who shot him for sleeping with his wife etc, however it got interputed as a crime by a white. I also asked why whityes got TWICE the wages blacks did. I was amazed to learn that whites pay 50% tax, blacks paid nothing !, any wonder the whites were running the country, they were paying to. Media didnt highlight that to the world? I now treat the media reports with caution, as they are often tainted. IMO the media is pro Palastinian. A few years ago, I had a (white) South African girlfriend. We lived together, and visited her family who live in Cape Town. Apartheid may be dead, but as far as I could see, racism in SA was still rife. Her family - and friends who visited them - had the very clear attitude that all blacks were Aids riddled criminals, who were only good to be servants and gardeners. I found the whole experience quite sickening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axle Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 I think Israel are just emptying their missile silos before Obama gets in.. Yes appears so. the world might (hopefully) be a different place after January 20th. I suspect not much will change (long term), only the puppet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAT Inter Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Sorry no chance of me signing that. How would the English feel if the Scottish, everyday without fail fired a couple of rockets in England? I think you would want something done to end it. You cannot find a peaceful solution with a group whos sole aim and objective is "To wipe Israel from the Earth". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiefgroover Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 A few years ago, I had a (white) South African girlfriend. We lived together, and visited her family who live in Cape Town. Apartheid may be dead, but as far as I could see, racism in SA was still rife. Her family - and friends who visited them - had the very clear attitude that all blacks were Aids riddled criminals, who were only good to be servants and gardeners. I found the whole experience quite sickening. I was told this was more an Afrikaans outlook when I was there, and the normal white SA person and and Afrikaans were very different in how they see the Black people. On the Aids issue, now that is a big big problem there, and yes it quite rife in the black community. If your kids were there wouldnt you be a bit over protective about who was around them? maybe even a bit paranoid? RSA is somewhere you need to visit to understand properly, and I dont mean that in a condescending way, its just hard to explain and i suppose experience is the best picture painter. I think a lot of ex RSA people are bitter at feeling the country now has no future and they have been driven out to some extent. A slow ehtnic cleansing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustGav Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 I think a lot of ex RSA people are bitter at feeling the country now has no future and they have been driven out to some extent. A slow ehtnic cleansing? It is true, it is a lovely country and most of the people I met over the years when I was growing up were good people, sure there are groups that will still be living in the old SA (both black and white), however they are a minority...Sadly the more affluent white people don't like the idea that their Eden isn't so much theirs anymore. I know it is a negative karma score for me, but there is a part of me that sometimes chuckles inside when I go to the local petrol station and there is a SA person on the till doing the night shift, not because of any other reason than 15 years ago, they wouldn't have EVER pictured themselves doing that job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiefgroover Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 The not so funny side of the RSA story is the failing economy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveK Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 The not so funny side of the RSA story is the failing economy. At the risk of linking it to the original topic - the interesting thing to me was that I did see a clear example of the effect of sanctions on individuals. Her dad had owned a very successful business during apartheid - multiple sites with strong international trade. The international sanctions cut off his customer base and essentially killed his business. However - I have also not signed the original petition and have no intention of doing so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiefgroover Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Yes I saw this for myself. A white Lady (widow) who had a dried flower export business I met had ran her business for two years only breaking even and living humbly herself to keen her 16 black employees in a job. Why? because there is no dole (financially impossible) and she didnt want them going into hard times. Sanctions had a bigger effect on black workers than white business owners from what I saw. Not that the por USA media would ever reflect that. I thought just like you until I got there, I come home a changed man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted January 11, 2009 Author Share Posted January 11, 2009 Whilst I vehemently disagree with some of the alleged "facts" put forward by a few and their twisted line of thinking; not to mention their complete disregard to innocent human life; I will continue to stick to my word and refrain from any discussion on the topic. Some have speculated incorrectly about my stance, I shall continue to refrain. Glad to see some very balanced and objective views from a select few members; there is no need for me to highlight them as it is fairly obvious from their posts. Regardless of whether people share my viewpoint or not, I continue to be shocked at the inept capability that educated people possess to have or NOT to have (as in this case) a discussion. Imi has been told this before, there is a huge cross section of members on the forum. There are views here that will run contrary to what may be the norm and there are views here that could border on the racist in many directions. The above quote from Branners still holds true....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveK Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Whilst I vehemently disagree with some of the alleged "facts" put forward by a few and their twisted line of thinking; not to mention their complete disregard to innocent human life; I think you'll find that nobody disregards human life. But many people have the view that if you repeatedly fire rockets into a country - killing innocent people - then you have to expect retaliation. As has already been pointed out - the real issue is whether people consider the retaliation excessive, or whether they consider it's a "you got what you deserved" situation. Regardless of whether people share my viewpoint or not, I continue to be shocked at the inept capability that educated people possess to have or NOT to have (as in this case) a discussion. Eh? If we're failing to have a discussion, what are the 6 pages of posts then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Regardless of whether people share my viewpoint or not, I continue to be shocked at the inept capability that educated people possess to have or NOT to have (as in this case) a discussion. Condescending as ever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustGav Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Eh? If we're failing to have a discussion, what are the 6 pages of posts then? I'd agree with you on that one... avoided the loctite so far , as the saying goes opinions are like assholes...every one has one. This discussion has stayed above board and been rather interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted January 11, 2009 Author Share Posted January 11, 2009 Eh? If we're failing to have a discussion, what are the 6 pages of posts then? I should have said, not SUPPOSED to have..... anyway, time for me to go out and wash my car - now that the temps are at a respectable 7 deg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbloodyturbo Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Whilst I vehemently disagree with some of the alleged "facts" put forward by a few and their twisted line of thinking; not to mention their complete disregard to innocent human life; I will continue to stick to my word and refrain from any discussion on the topic. Some have speculated incorrectly about my stance, I shall continue to refrain. Glad to see some very balanced and objective views from a select few members; there is no need for me to highlight them as it is fairly obvious from their posts. Regardless of whether people share my viewpoint or not, I continue to be shocked at the inept capability that educated people possess to have or NOT to have (as in this case) a discussion. The above quote from Branners still holds true....... If everyone agreed with you and signed your petition would you be happier? just because people express their own opinion and it doesn't match yours, you accuse them of being wrong. I thought the whole point of a discussion was to listen to what others have to say, not to try and force them into your line of thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ewen Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Re the reason for the reasonable reasoning behind this reasonable thread topic.....You can't reason with the unreasonable using reasonable reasoning. The reason being that the unreasonable reasoning behind these unreasonable events are due to unreasonables that are unable to reason with those who have reasonable reasons why this unreasonable situation could be stopped by reasoning reasonably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustGav Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Re the reason for the reasonable reasoning behind this reasonable thread topic.....You can't reason with the unreasonable using reasonable reasoning. The reason being that the unreasonable reasoning behind these unreasonable events are due to unreasonables that are unable to reason with those who have reasonable reasons why this unreasonable situation could be stopped by reasoning reasonably. Is that one of those 'Count the f's' trick questions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kranz Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Re the reason for the reasonable reasoning behind this reasonable thread topic.....You can't reason with the unreasonable using reasonable reasoning. The reason being that the unreasonable reasoning behind these unreasonable events are due to unreasonables that are unable to reason with those who have reasonable reasons why this unreasonable situation could be stopped by reasoning reasonably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedM Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Re the reason for the reasonable reasoning behind this reasonable thread topic.....You can't reason with the unreasonable using reasonable reasoning. The reason being that the unreasonable reasoning behind these unreasonable events are due to unreasonables that are unable to reason with those who have reasonable reasons why this unreasonable situation could be stopped by reasoning reasonably. Fook me. That's worthy of Donald Rumsfeld that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3LL Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 I am fairly convinced that the club is grateful for your contribution. There are plenty of threads about cars so you should find yourself right at home here. As to threads that you dont necessarily care or have an interest in, I am sure you can manage a extra mouse click to navigate away. If not, then so be it. I refer to a fair post by Branners.....where he says.. THIS thread is and continues to be meant to alert the ones who DO actually care......for the ones that dont; you know what NOT to do; for ones that DONT agree, dont sign it. Fairly straight forward I would have thought..... didnt see anyone telling you to 'get into a political debate'. Sorry was someone your hand in typing your replies to this thread? If so i may be able to help. You paid for your membership? Guess what? I paid for my membership too I also happen to think there are a few pointless topics posted on this site. I have probably posted some myself- However i dont have to let them know that i think their topic is pointless. I just simply dont get involved in the topic. If its going to stress you out, dont get involved and just stick to 'talking about cars and having a laugh'. Simple when you think about it really. Well chaps, all i can really say is im going to rise above a silly retort, your views differ to mine.. Im not going to turn into a keyboard warrior on something that I have nor wish to have no involvement in, simple as. Thats MY oppinion! Now,I think i shall go read some other topics on this CAR forum.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonball Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 There is a time and place for discussions about politics and religion This thread makes me uneasy for two reasons; 1. The polarisation of viewpoints, that quite frankly will never meet 2. This is a car forum, on which I like to read about cars and watch Michael bait newbies Imi - I know you feel very strongly about this point (as do I) but perhaps this is not the place for political discourse and I (and I suspect others) would appreciate it if you could keep this line of thread to other forums which are there for that purpose Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marbleapple Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Imi - I know you feel very strongly about this point (as do I) but perhaps this is not the place for political discourse and I (and I suspect others) would appreciate it if you could keep this line of thread to other forums which are there for that purpose Thanks I personally don't understand the 'this forum isn't the place' arguments. If the 'off topic' area is not an area for off topic conversation then where is. It is nice to be able to discuss (even fall out) over interesting topics. Its a political issue of great significance for many people. People who come tot he car forum for the car discussions have every other part of the forum to chat.... and lets be honest this is a club and in clubs people chat about other things than cars.... wouldn't be much of a club if we could only talk about the Supra. What I don't like about the off topic section is that its always the same people putting the 'help the repressed state/race/person' threads all of which follow the same lines*. I don't see Martin, Rob or Daryll starting such threads. *I note imi has tried not to in this case but somehow it has ended this way due to the usual culprits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanM Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 I personally don't understand the 'this forum isn't the place' arguments. If the 'off topic' area is not an area for off topic conversation then where is. It is nice to be able to discuss (even fall out) over interesting topics. Its a political issue of great significance for many people. People who come tot he car forum for the car discussions have every other part of the forum to chat.... and lets be honest this is a club and in clubs people chat about other things than cars.... wouldn't be much of a club if we could only talk about the Supra. Agree with that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axle Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Agree with that As do i. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigcol Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 shall we all just have a nice cup of tea and a digestive instead:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedM Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 shall we all just have a nice cup of tea and a digestive instead:D Got any chocolate Hob-Nobs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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