AlanM Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Absolutely, and in the strongest possible terms I will not sign this, because the Palestinians are not "innocent civilians". They voted for Hamas. Hamas is a terrorist organisation that openly called for the destruction of Israel prior to the last Palestinian election, and a majority voted for them, presumably fully aware that Hamas intended to attack Israel. If you believe in the democratic system, then you must also believe these rocket attacks are supported by the majority of Palestinians, so therefore the inevitable consequences must also be supported by the majority of Palestinians. I hope there is a soloution to the middle east, but I fear that, much like the Germans who voted for Hitler prior to WW II, the Palestinians who voted for Hamas are responsible for much bloodshed on both sides, now and in the future. Sad but true Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axle Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Everyone has a right to defend thenselves. However this has gone well beyond defending ones self. Do you even know how many War CRIMES Isreal has committed? Might be of intrest to some to check out this stop the massacare speech. Anyway I will personally refrain from escalating this thread any further, as its only going to go and get locked anyway at this rate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedM Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 I cant recall a single time that Israel struck first. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soop Dogg Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 I seem to recall about 3 years ago, Israel removed its OWN PEOPLE from the West Bank in a full and unconditional withdrawal from the area. The settlers were dragged screaming and kicking from their homes so that the Palestinians could have full possession of that area. This was in an effort to advance the peace process. Since then, Hamas has done nothing, and I mean nothing, to assist in further advancing the process. Ceasefires have been put in place and still rockets have been fired into Israel. Let's not forget that the Jews are a people who not so long ago were faced with extinction. Some of the holocaust survivors are still alive today. I am not saying that their past excuses what could be viewed as an over-reaction in Gaza today, but unlike prior to 1947, they now have a homeland and the military might to protect it. I can understand how they now want to make it very clear that you can't attack them now and hope to get away with it. Just before Christmas, Hamas declared that they would not be renewing the ceasefire when it ran out. They then fired more rockets into Israel. There is no way they could have hoped to gain anything territorially as they don't have the might, so what were they attempting to do? It seems they wanted to stir up Israel into an over-reaction to turn the rest of the world against them. Hamas doesn't care about it's own people. They are willing to place rocket launchers and it's own fighters into residential areas just so they can get video footage of dead and injured women and children to present to the world in the hope that someone (like Iran/Lebanon etc) will join the fight with a bigger stick than they have. I won't be signing up to anything that condones this. Sorry mate. Both sides have to start talking and both need to act and maybe give up some of their demands before they can start living together in peace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marbleapple Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Do you even know how many War CRIMES Isreal has committed? Might be of intrest to some to check out this stop the massacare speech.. With respect do YOU know personally how many war crimes Israel has committed? Have you been over there? Have you seem how many war crimes Hamas has committed? - I suspect the answer to all above is 'no'. Agree 100% with TrickyTT Anyway I will personally refrain from escalating this thread any further, as its only going to go and get locked anyway at this rate. Thats nice of you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewOW Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 ...present to the world in the hope that someone (like Iran/Lebanon etc) will join the fight with a bigger stick than they have. Just what Bush would've wanted as an excuse to bomb Iran to bits IMO. Maybe the timing wasn't that bad after all! I don't think Obama would be quite so quick in 'retaliating'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewOW Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Again? I didn't realise it had the first time? Well, in the past (the 80s), every time there was an 'incident' in the Middle East it was deemed by the press to be the start of WW3, so I was just making a comment on how trivial things can be blown out of proportion. Obviously, what's going on there now isn't trivial, but as TrickTT said, the Palestinians did vote a terror organisation into power. So that will bring about its own destruction IMO, especially if they started it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supra_aero Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 I put a thread regarding this a few weeks ago, thread here; it was closed prematurely by the moderator due to her feeling that we (members) couldnt have a mature discussion about the very serious international issue. The situation is extremely serious and hence I am posting this thread to alert you to a petition that I hope you all will sign if you agree that what is happening in the middle east is wrong..... Please respect the mod's opinion of not discussing this topic; unless the mod believes that we members are mature enough. Please sign this petition here Many thanks. Imi, without wanting to sign condescending I fail to see what difference an online petition will make. If you really want to make a difference and be true to your cause there must surely be better ways of voicing your stance? Educating people of your view would be far more an intelligent manner of going about things where you will make a true impact than simply linking to a petition. Not being funny but if I was serious about a cause, I'd be going out there to make a difference. Write an article to newspapers/news editors with your views? Writing to channel 4 about your opinions and try to get a documentary together (its not as difficult as you think if your views and arguments are interesting enough - I think many would be interested in such a program)? Getting in contact with a publisher about a book if you feel so strongly. If you don't feel that strong to the cause, then don't be surprised if the online petition goes nowhere and nothing changes (which I could bet my house on, nothing will change). World leaders will not check the status of the online petition and make a political decision on that basis. Unfortunately "thats the bottom line, cause supra_aero said so!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axle Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Good post Supra_aero. With respect do YOU know personally how many war crimes Israel has committed? Have you been over there? Have you seem how many war crimes Hamas has committed? - I suspect the answer to all above is 'no'. Before you get your knickers in a further twist, read my comments properly. Did i state that i personally knew how many crimes were comitted? Or for that matter any of the other rubbish you spouted? You only need ask the United Nations, or research into the matter. Anyway go drink some camomile, will help you relax a little. 5) What is worth more to you, 5 Palestinian lives or one Jewish life? What on earth are you trying to say here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colsoop Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 I wont sign this petition either. I don't know of a single country who would allow themselves to be shelled or rocket attacked at the level they have been (regardless of civilian or other damages) If Britian was being rocketed by France as an example i am pretty sure we would respond in a similar vein. Due to the tactics of the Hamas fighters, hiding weapons in Mosques, hospitals and amongst civilians coupled with the density of the population there innocent people will die. Nobody comes out of it smelling of roses and that is unfortunately how wars always end up. But if you poke the big dog at the bottom of the garden with a stick and it bites you then you have learnt the lesson to not poke it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedM Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 But if you poke the big dog at the bottom of the garden with a stick and it bites you then you have learnt the lesson to not poke it Of course sometimes that dog might sneak into your house and crap in your slippers without being provoked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tannhauser Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Just to pick up on one point on the thread. Some seem to be expressing the view that Palestinian civilians deserve to be attacked because they voted Hamas in - and Hamas is a 'terrorist organisation'. Is there a difference between this viewpoint and the Al-Queda position on attacking the USA? They have argued that US citizens deserve to be attacked, because they have voted in a government that knowingly sponsors terrorist actions around the world. You could also argue that UK citizens voted in a government that invaded Iraq and caused many civilian deaths. If you accept that it's OK to attack the palestinian citizens on those grounds, then presumably it's acceptable for suicide bombers to target the UK? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustGav Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 But if you poke the big dog at the bottom of the garden with a stick and it bites you then you have learnt the lesson to not poke it My thoughts exactly, and like some else said, I have friends in the israeli military it certain helps to have another viewpoint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustGav Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Just to pick up on one point on the thread. Some seem to be expressing the view that Palestinian civilians deserve to be attacked because they voted Hamas in - and Hamas is a 'terrorist organisation'. I'm getting dragged into this kicking and screaming now Okay, here is the question people need to ask... who determines who is a freedom fighter and who is a terrorist? I will mention a man from my time and my location... Nelson Mandela. A great man or so everyone thinks... People seem to have forgotten he was responsible for training and organizing paramilitary groups and organizing bombing of targets. Don't get me wrong, he has had a positive impact over the years but he was still a terrorist against normal population (rightly or wrongly), but does highlight my point I feel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiefgroover Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians "Israeli troops crossed into the Gaza Strip late last night near the town of Deir al-Balah. The Israeli military said the target of the raid was a tunnel that they said Hamas was planning to use to capture Israeli soldiers positioned on the border fence 250m away. Four Israeli soldiers were injured in the operation, two moderately and two lightly, the military said." I would put that down to protection of their own people, hardly a full on first strike. Good policing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kranz Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Poised with the Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewOW Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Poised with the Thinking of locking this down and chucking us poor 'hopeless' people out in the cold again, per chance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axle Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Just to pick up on one point on the thread. Some seem to be expressing the view that Palestinian civilians deserve to be attacked because they voted Hamas in - and Hamas is a 'terrorist organisation'. Is there a difference between this viewpoint and the Al-Queda position on attacking the USA? They have argued that US citizens deserve to be attacked, because they have voted in a government that knowingly sponsors terrorist actions around the world. You could also argue that UK citizens voted in a government that invaded Iraq and caused many civilian deaths. If you accept that it's OK to attack the palestinian citizens on those grounds, then presumably it's acceptable for suicide bombers to target the UK? Spot on. I am glad we have balanced individuals on this forum. Specially those amongst the Moderating team - Priceless to an Internet forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiefgroover Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 I'm getting dragged into this kicking and screaming now Okay, here is the question people need to ask... who determines who is a freedom fighter and who is a terrorist? I will mention a man from my time and my location... Nelson Mandela. A great man or so everyone thinks... People seem to have forgotten he was responsible for training and organizing paramilitary groups and organizing bombing of targets. Don't get me wrong, he has had a positive impact over the years but he was still a terrorist against normal population (rightly or wrongly), but does highlight my point I feel. I remember my first trip to the USA in 90. Spent 4 weeks there on the east coast. I will never forget the divided society between black and white. Every holiday apartment block, bar, restaurant etc was either black or white, integration was almost nil. The following year I was in South Africa for 3 weeks (91). I didnt see one incident of racial hatred the whole time. On my last night there i was playing in a pool competition with a Zulu, an Asian, a RSA white and myself in the doubles final. Everyone got on fine in Harvey J Beans The media at the time was still highlighting everything it could to make RSA look the racists and create a smoke screen for the USA. If a black man got shot in Durban it was "a black man was shot in Durban last night", the news didnt tell you it was his brother who shot him for sleeping with his wife etc, however it got interputed as a crime by a white. I also asked why whityes got TWICE the wages blacks did. I was amazed to learn that whites pay 50% tax, blacks paid nothing !, any wonder the whites were running the country, they were paying to. Media didnt highlight that to the world? I now treat the media reports with caution, as they are often tainted. IMO the media is pro Palastinian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tannhauser Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 I'm getting dragged into this kicking and screaming now I know what you mean...it's irresistible, isn't it? Okay, here is the question people need to ask... who determines who is a freedom fighter and who is a terrorist? Absolutely. Was it Maggie who pointed out: "One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist" I found the quote from Bin Laden. It's on a CRS report to the US congress and the language is strikingly similar to that expressed earlier in this thread: It is a fundamental principle of any democracy that the people choose their leaders, and as such, approve and are party to the actions of their elected leaders... By electing these leaders, the American people have given their consent to the incarceration of the Palestinian people, the demolition of Palestinian homes and the slaughter of the children of Iraq. This is why the American people are not innocent. The American people are active members in all these crimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axle Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 IMO the media is pro Palastinian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustGav Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 I remember my first trip.... It was O'Shea Jackson (Ice Cube) who said 'I respect South Africa, at least people know where they stand', and you know what, he had a point. While I will NEVER agree with apartheid, as you have rightly said SA took a lot of the racial heat for the world purely because at least they admitted it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 I think Israel are just emptying their missile silos before Obama gets in... they can do what they want while Bush is around, the world might (hopefully) be a different place after January 20th. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustGav Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 IMO the media is pro Palastinian. Don't totally agree with that, the media is pro-whatever-makes-a-good-story, regardless of which side is even remotely right. In this case, yes, Palestine seems to be getting the benefit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedM Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 "Israeli troops crossed into the Gaza Strip late last night near the town of Deir al-Balah. The Israeli military said the target of the raid was a tunnel that they said Hamas was planning to use to capture Israeli soldiers positioned on the border fence 250m away. Four Israeli soldiers were injured in the operation, two moderately and two lightly, the military said." I would put that down to protection of their own people, hardly a full on first strike. Good policing? Only if you believe that they are telling the truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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