rant What the heck is it with this country

[extendor]

given that the drain on resources caused by 'benefit cheats' or those milking the system must be absolutely miniscule compared to the sums involved in the current fiscal crisis.

I doubt you are saying that the scale of the fraud in comparison to other events is a valid mitigation to not chase down the fraudsters but it could be taken that way:). Many people feel that this is a serious issue whatever the sums involved and as I am a tax payer it is of great interest to me that the fraud is dealt with effectively.

[Scott]

My initial post wasn't directed at people on benefits as such. I just think there is a serious problem when you can work for a living, pay taxes all your days and end up with less financial assistance than people who have scrounged all their days.

 

Same goes with pensions.

[Tannhauser]

I doubt you are saying that the scale of the fraud in comparison to other events is a valid mitigation to not chase down the fraudsters but it could be taken that way:). Many people feel that this is a serious issue whatever the sums involved and as I am a tax payer it is of great interest to me that the fraud is dealt with effectively.

 

I see benefit fraud as an unavoidable side effect of having any kind of benefits system. It's one of those things that has always happened and always will. What I find interesting is how the amount of noise about it has got more and more over the years and why that change has occurred.

 

I'm convinced that this is a consequence of 'American drift' - a bit of a hobby horse of mine, but it's pretty apparent that cultural norms in the UK have drifted away from European views on social/political issues (such as benefits, employment, wealth) and towards US ones.

 

The people that get most wound up about benefit frauds and the whole benefits system often (in my experience of talking to them) harbour the belief that most people on benefits have only got themselves to blame or choose to live that way because they are lazy. That view is really the corollary of the American dream of meritocracy : if you believe that those at the top deserve their place - they succeeded on their own merits and have got there solely because of their hard work - then you have to also believe that those at the bottom are there because of their laziness and ineptitude.

[supraspeed]

As far as i'm concerned we should just cap britain from anyone seeking work/living regardless of everything. we seem to want to help everyone out before our own country first. i'm not blaming it on immigrants as if youve got the opportunity to work, your gonna take it whoever you are. what annoys me is that immigrants can apply for their family to come over and claim benefits and be given a house etc. why are we still letting people in when the countries in a crisis as its just more of my money down the drain! i feel so sorry for the average worker loosing his/her jobs when spongers are given freebees.

[hogmaw]

As far as i'm concerned we should just cap britain from anyone seeking work/living regardless of everything.

 

Like North Korea?

 

we seem to want to help everyone out before our own country first.

 

We're in a position to help, we are a RICH country believe it or not. Helping others is the bedrock of CIVILISATION.

 

i'm not blaming it on immigrants as if youve got the opportunity to work, your gonna take it whoever you are. what annoys me is that immigrants can apply for their family to come over and claim benefits and be given a house etc.

 

So it's OK for them to come over to work or not? And if they're working, how can they be claiming benefits too?

 

why are we still letting people in when the countries in a crisis as its just more of my money down the drain!

 

Did you ever stop to consider that some immigrants are actually beneficial to this country, and we'd be a lot worse off without them?

 

i feel so sorry for the average worker loosing his/her jobs when spongers are given freebees.

 

I think everyone agrees with this. It's bleedin' obvious. But to blame immigrants is wrong.

[supraspeed]

Like North Korea?

 

 

 

We're in a position to help, we are a RICH country believe it or not. Helping others is the bedrock of CIVILISATION.

 

 

 

So it's OK for them to come over to work or not? And if they're working, how can they be claiming benefits too?

 

 

 

Did you ever stop to consider that some immigrants are actually beneficial to this country, and we'd be a lot worse off without them?

 

 

 

I think everyone agrees with this. It's bleedin' obvious. But to blame immigrants is wrong.

 

i dont blame the immigrants i blame the government. and even if we are a rich country surley we can sort ourselves out and stop people loosing jobs. the bedrock of our civilisation was given away when the british empire collapsed and when we let the government sign the eu treaty. immigrants do bring in income but at a cost of overcrowding and a crippling public service expense. we dont need immigrants anymore as we havent needed them since the romans! its just a tempory economy boost which comes with too many disadvantages on the long term.

[Lbm]

i dont blame the immigrants i blame the government. and even if we are a rich country surley we can sort ourselves out and stop people loosing jobs.

 

There are still plenty of British people who can't be arsed to work. Whether it's a good or bad economy.

 

the bedrock of our civilisation was given away when the british empire collapsed and when we let the government sign the eu treaty.

 

mmm...Like going in to other peoples' countires and taking over was ok then? Payback time, no?

 

 

immigrants do bring in income but at a cost of overcrowding and a crippling public service expense. we dont need immigrants anymore as we havent needed them since the romans!

 

Since the Romans? Superb.

 

 

its just a tempory economy boost which comes with too many disadvantages on the long term.

 

Economies are temporary by their nature. We need people to work. Some will be immigrants.

 

Let's not forget some Brits go abroad to work- is this incorrect?

 

Anyway I reckon someone will be along later to type out what I'm trying to say, but they'll do it a whole lot better.

 

Give me a T...

[supraspeed]

There are still plenty of British people who can't be arsed to work. Whether it's a good or bad economy.

 

oh i agree its all types. i know a few people who are completely able to work but can't be assed and on dole and if they ever get invited out with us somewhere etc always asking for cash fu**ing scroungers. one of my mates even asked for a whip round new years to pay for this guys admission ticket! used to be my mate but bone idle and lazy now so i have nothing to do with him...shame some of my other mates do

 

mmm...Like going in to other peoples' countires and taking over was ok then? Payback time, no?

 

 

ok payback....fair point but we do live in a more civilised society now and we demonstrated by giving countries back/removing british rule.

 

Since the Romans? Superb.

 

 

 

 

Economies are temporary by their nature. We need people to work. Some will be immigrants.

but now its getting ridiculous. i work in edmonton as a tree surgeon and i can't understand hardly anyone when i ask them to move vehicles etc....feels a bit intimidating

Let's not forget some Brits go abroad to work- is this incorrect?

Yeah but not in drones, look at australia, heavily regulated border control

 

Anyway I reckon someone will be along later to type out what I'm trying to say, but they'll do it a whole lot better.

 

Give me a T...

 

i'm not racist by the way before the abuse starts

surley it should be white gaps between those quote marks i filled in ...

[hogmaw]

i dont blame the immigrants i blame the government. and even if we are a rich country surley we can sort ourselves out and stop people loosing jobs. the bedrock of our civilisation was given away when the british empire collapsed and when we let the government sign the eu treaty. immigrants do bring in income but at a cost of overcrowding and a crippling public service expense. we dont need immigrants anymore as we havent needed them since the romans! its just a tempory economy boost which comes with too many disadvantages on the long term.

 

I am far too busy to counter the many, many flaws in your argument. That Romans point would be hilarious if it wasn't so tragic.

 

I suggest you read up on your history, and don't rely on tabloid newspapers for your education. Here's a quote from Einstein:

 

"Somebody who only reads newspapers and at best books of contemporary authors looks to me like an extremely near-sighted person who scorns eyeglasses. He is completely dependent on the prejudices and fashions of his times, since he never gets to see or hear anything else. And what a person thinks on his own without being stimulated by the thoughts and experiences of other people is even in the best case rather paltry and monotonous."

[supraspeed]

I am far too busy to counter the many, many flaws in your argument. That Romans point would be hilarious if it wasn't so tragic.

 

I suggest you read up on your history, and don't rely on tabloid newspapers for your education. Here's a quote from Einstein:

 

"Somebody who only reads newspapers and at best books of contemporary authors looks to me like an extremely near-sighted person who scorns eyeglasses. He is completely dependent on the prejudices and fashions of his times, since he never gets to see or hear anything else. And what a person thinks on his own without being stimulated by the thoughts and experiences of other people is even in the best case rather paltry and monotonous."

 

sounds well thought out, i'l take notes

[AndrewOW]

The UK is an aging population, believe it or not (more older people than young), and we need to get a workforce from somewhere, and importing them is a lot easier than persuading people to have more kids.

 

I'm sure I read something like that somewhere! Anyway, British people aren't having families like they used to IIRC (if I read that correctly)

[Konrad]

I'm sure I read something like that somewhere! Anyway, British people aren't having families like they used to IIRC (if I read that correctly)

 

Because your goverment destroyed every aspect of having one. There is no support for proper families, you have to cheat to get any help or support in growing next generation. Unfortunatelly those who are breeding most (benefit generation) are not a best example for their offspring...

[dangerous brain]

This is a subject close to my heart. Having lived elsewhere in Europe and having conquested far and wide in my so far short life I am very disappointed in the state of this nation. I have given my own service in very strenuous circumstances for 16 years in various war zones across the world and now IMO for what? The bunch of clowns running the show are IMO deliberately trying to force the economy into a position it will take 10 years to recover from. They are allowing more people into the country than the country can deal with. Don't get me wrong there are people in the world that need helping but its an idealistic fool that believes they can rescue the whole world. Rescue the parts of the world that you can. Fight the battles you know you'll win. Don't try and beat the world. Don't try and feed the world. You can't climb everest on your own in the nude so why would you try. Thats how I see the do-gooder nation we have become.

[Carl_S]

DB, I agree that it is better to truly help one person than kind of help one thousand people. But what is the clown government's agenda in deliberately trying to make the economy worse in your opinion?

[extendor]

I see benefit fraud as an unavoidable side effect of having any kind of benefits system.

.

 

Agree 100%

 

The people that get most wound up about benefit frauds and the whole benefits system often (in my experience of talking to them) harbour the belief that most people on benefits have only got themselves to blame or choose to live that way because they are lazy.

 

Yes, but there are still a great many that see the benefit system as the safety net it was intended as. Not everyone can be the king of the castle and there will be a great many that can't function effectively or by circumstances end up in need. I will agree with you that some people do shout louder than others and their voice does get heard a lot more but volume is not the same as quality. There are many people with smaller voices who still see the value of the benefit system but want it protected from misuse so when those of us that have paid in and do find we need it and will treat the system with respect do get the help we 'insured' for.

 

I consider myself to be in the latter category. All I want is fairness and those claimants that are not entitled or who are being fraudulent should be removed to protect the system for its proper purpose.

[dangerous brain]

DB, I agree that it is better to truly help one person than kind of help one thousand people. But what is the clown government's agenda in deliberately trying to make the economy worse in your opinion?

Same as they did last time they knew they were going to hell on a helter skelter. If they f*ck the economy over badly enough the replacement government will not be able to fix it in their first term. With popularity swings alot quicker than in the 60's due to the media we now have, they probably fancy their chances of getting back in after one term out. Sort of foisting off the blame on the next government by pre-arrangement.

I have another theory as well. I think they recognise the fact that they have driven up the cost of property to a point that nobody can afford to buy anything unless they already have a property. Thats great right until they have to pay to house all the people that can't buy (this list is only ever going to get bigger and bigger). There's no cheap council housing anymore because they sold all that off, so when they do have to pay housing benefits its at the local rental costs which is in line with average mortgage costs. A cost that will at some point become completely unaffordable.

Now if they deliberately devalue the entire pound then inflation will go crackers. Things from abroad will be too expensive so we will stop sending all our money out of the country for tellies etc and at the same time other countries will start buying our stuff because its suddenly become very cheap. The cost of housing will not go up in line with the cost of everything else. Keep going far enough and suddenly you'll find that people can buy their first house again. The whole process will then start all over.

[Konrad]

Agree 100%

 

 

 

Yes, but there are still a great many that see the benefit system as the safety net it was intended as.

 

That's the whole point - safety net, not way of living as it is right now.

 

@DB

 

There is only one problem with inflation etc - wages needs to go up above inflantion level or at least with this level.

[dangerous brain]

There would obviously have to be a period of re-adjustment but the current bunch of muppets really don't give a crap about us because they're pensions are index linked!!

[SUPRALOOPY]

I read the first few posts and if I answer in this thread I'll explode.

[Carl_S]

Very interesting what you say there DB. I disagree with it, but can only back up my disagreement with feeling rather than fact.

 

I do not feel that our current labour government is machivellian enough to engineer the deliberate sabotage of our economy in order that they will immediately gain power after the tories loose their first term of office, after an envisaged tory win at the next general election. I feel 1) that it it relies too much on speculation 2) That it is so downright cruel and irresponsible that it is almost shocking that such a negative view could be held in seriousness about current uk politicians. 3) It would involve so much co-operation, timing and feverish scheming that one would think that the politicians are not busy enough already going about their day to day business than to spend time planning this.

 

 

Then you talk about the government wanting to purposely devalue the pound, in order to enter into some kind of boom and bust cycle. Is that similiar to the boom bust cycle we had under the tories only a lot slower?

 

Also I feel that the UK goverment, is hardly a massive world power that it used to be in colonial times, and seems to be at the mercy to a great extent of global ecomonic factors, like the fallout from bad debts from US subprime lending. So I feel that the current recession is largely a product of international events, than it is due to Gordon Brown.

 

Also why in your opinion did the MPC lower the interest rate again by half a percent? You seem to be saying in your post that mortgages and house prices are rising? Are they right now, I thought that they were falling. Forgive me if I have misunderstood you.

 

Cheers DB

[Carl_S]

And supraloopy, would it be possible for you to explode here without profanity, or using self-c£n$orsh!p?

[dangerous brain]

No the housing market price wise is going down, but in relation to 10 years ago the cost of housing is unaffordable. The rental market prices have risen in line with similar rises in property value (after all you wouldn't expect to be able to rent a house at half the price you would pay a mortgage for if you bought it). There is a certain percentage of the overall population that is in social housing. The cost of this housing is now pretty much in line with the private rental market. When social housing was owned by local government the relative cost was very low (basically the maintenance of properties costs). With the economic downturn there will be more people in social housing, the amount of people that can't afford to buy will rise as children become adults but their parents don't die thereby inheritance can't help out. Housing is going to be a huge, huge problem in the not so distant future.

 

As for governmental sabotage you only have to look at their subterfuge with the whole weapons of mass destruction thing to see they are an out and out lying bunch of whatnots. They have a fairly strong grip on the media and have spun their way out of countless mishaps and outright wrong doings. For chrissakes the ex-PM himself was involved in a criminal investigation. If its not sabotage then surely they should just be sacked for utter incompetence of a criminal level. I mean lets announce to the world we are selling our gold reserve and flood the market in plenty of time to de-stabilise the price of gold so we get cock all for it. Lets tell the bank of England and various other financial institutions to keep lending huge amounts of money to people that probably won't be able to pay it back (the ex director of the bank of England admitted this was government policy a short while ago). Then announce that the only way to get us out of a recession is to borrow more money and spend it (what kind of a dumb ass policy is that?). And then to cap it all off devalue our currency some more by printing more of it for the same amount if not less national assets. F*ckwittery is what that is and I kind of hope it is deliberate because if its not we have Co-Co the clown incorp running our country.

 

And to finish I will say yes we as a nation are afloat the big international downturn but how comes against the rest of europe (thats got some seriously poor countries with much bigger issues than us) and the states that started all this in the first place our currency is getting battered? Our economic stance developed by our government is why!!!

[Dozymare]

As someone working in finance I almost completely blame Gordon Brown for the current mess. We have been teetering on disaster for the last 4 years with the government, headed by Gordon as chancellor, taking whatever action was needed to keep us afloat for that little bit longer. The downturn was inevitable and the longer it was put off the harder it was going to be. It was obvious that the decisions being made were short term and the end effect would be worse. The global crisis was the catalyst and has magnified the effect but the godawful mess is 100% the governments fault.

 

re: benefits etc - am I the only person that screams at the TV whenever they hear about whatever great new fiscal help the government is going to give that it doesnt help you one bit? I rent my house, have more savings than debt and don't have kids..

[Carl_S]

DM, Why particularly the last four years? Where did you get that figure from?

 

What could Gordon have done?

 

DB, you want the current gov to be deliberately hurting the economy so that the clowns do not run the country. Which clowns?

 

Is it possible that Tony Blair did not know the truth about WMD and that he did not lie?

 

Politicians , what ever the flavour can be misinformed about things surely. Why would the Tories be any better?

[dangerous brain]

Oh hey don't get me wrong I don't think that the tories will be any better, that is what is so depressing. Tony blair had access to alot of information about the WMD stuff and was to a certain degree involved directly in the false propagation of incorrect information and suppression of less than favourable evidence in this case. Culpable deniability in this case is a load of balls. He knew there wasn't any WMD's before we went there. What the real motives for the invasion of Iraq we'll have to wait until they have to release the records in about 40 years or what have you.

The reason I would prefer that the current government were doing this deliberately would at least mean they had some sort of long term plan of some sort instead of being at best an exceedingly high risk gamble and in the medium a circus waiting to drag this country to its knees, at worst a financial fall that could bankrupt this country.