converting j spec turbos to uk spec and BPU++

[Luxluc]

I agree on that ... after having BPU'd my Supe, I was not sure -in the next step- whether to go for hybrids or single. I am glad I went single as the power gains would have been small from euro-spec BPU to hybrid.

[StuartW]

so the general consensus is go single or go home then?

 

oh well might as well go bigger than gt35R then

 

Driveability and a lovely flat power curve is what i need with minimal lag for this road, circuit car...I guess i was spoiled with the gt35 and should stick with it?

 

I used to have a bpu'd ceramic j spec and it just seemed to have more 1100-2000 rpm response but i guess that range is hardly ever used...Thoughts?

[tDR]

Yeah the GT35R sounds perfect for your needs Stuart.

 

Have a look at the dyno comparisons from Surrey RR over at Ryan's site. Here's a TT Hybrid car (grahamc) vs. a T60-1 small single'd car for example:

 

http://2bartuning.com/dynographs/graph.php?curveID=9,34&toPlot=2

 

IIRC the GT35R spools quicker and Nic posted his graphs a while back of his car with Hybrids vs. his car with GT35R, showing a better spool, curve and power. * EDIT - Found it: *

 

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/7302/gt35rbputtxw2.png

 

^^ Hybrids curve in red.

 

Cheers,

 

Brian.

[Soop Dogg]

when the hybrids invariably fail 2,000 miles later... not to mention the hassle

 

Now, I'm not averse to people expressing an opinion, but claiming that hybrids 'fail 2,000 miles later' is simply not true if they are good and the car is mapped correctly.

 

IanC had his hybrids on his car for about 4 to 5 years before I bought them. I then used them for about a year and a half before selling them on. They were always strong and reliable. I did the conversion to hybrids for about £2k and they provided me with a good alternative to going single which would have cost me much more to do with a manifold etc.

 

It all depends what we want from our cars. I liked the sequential system - not everyone does, but I did. I kept this while gaining a fair amount of power over BPU. Hybrids aren't for everyone and I'm not going to tell anyone that they should be the preferred route, but for some people, they can still be a viable route to getting a noticeable improvement in performance.

 

Telling people that hybrids will require replacement after a couple of thousand miles is just untrue.

[dandan]

These hybrids are up for £1000.

 

A single kit is going to cost you a minmum of £2000, even more at the moment with the US exchange rate as it is.

 

Then factor in the extras not included in turbo kits such as DBB water feed lines and that £1000 is a hell of a lot cheaper than any reputable single kit.

 

I agree that a single kit is quicker to fit but it won't be £1500 cheaper....then factor in the mapping differences too.

 

I have had a set of turbotechnics turbos on my car for 40,000 and they have never ever missed a beat or shedded a puff of smoke.

 

I you are looking for sub 480bhp flywheel power, you want to keep insurance cheap then hybrids are great. I personally love the pull of a seq twin setup and that lazy sub 3000rpm surge is great.

 

I have never been in another TT on stock based turbos that pulls as hard as mine and that includes stock, BPU and vvti bpu's in both manual and auto and I only run 1.15bar. So...naturally I don't agree with the "hybrid slating" and making apples to orange comparisons of drag racing times between two different cars is no fair way to draw conclusions.

 

Just my 2 pence

[Scott]

This is a very interesting thread. I always presumed that hybrids were a simple switch for stock. I understand that you probably wouldn't be able to crank them right up without injectors and some mapping but i though you could swap them right out with J-Spec's, crank them up to 1.2 bar and have the job done.

 

I thought in order to have a reliable well sorted single you need to put away 10k if not doing it yourself? Thats what i have read on every single thread on this forum (almost). To maximise hybrids i realise you would need the turbo's themselves, ECU, Injectors, mapping and fitting.

 

Am i missing something? By my count that would cost about 2k all in + fitting costs = nowhere near 10k.

 

I would love to go single but i don't have 10k to throw at my car to make it worth 2k more than it is (if i'm lucky) and i did think about hybrids for a while. I was thinking i could do it without the ECU and Injectors, for the moment, as long as i didn't crank up the boost.

[bodilx6]

I agree with you, Scotster. 100%. I asked somewhat the same questions earlier, and would love to have your considerations confirmed.

[tDR]

OK I'll bite and answer everyones points since I feel strongly on this subject and should point out that the only people defending hybrids are the ones that have or had them in the past - no objective, forward looking views from other people that have neither and have followed the various threads on this forum about each who have also noticed the worrying trend of failure with hybrids.

 

To make my position clear once again:

 

1. I say stick with J spec Ceramics over hybrids as there's little to no gain to be had by going down the hybrid route. Hybrids are £2k new, £1k used by the looks of pricing on this forum. J Spec Ceramics are free if you look after them and don't break the set that came with your car by overboosting them or by not warming up the car properly / shutting it down sympathetically before and after boosting. They come in at around £200 a set used should you need them.
   
2. 
   I say there is little to no gain to be had performance wise by changing to hybrids so that £2k for a new set is wasted money since they aren't really an 'upgrade'. Those same people commenting that have had or have hybrids are only offering a subjective opinion on how much 'stronger' or 'more urgent' they feel - they do not offer a proven performance comparison with facts and figures. I have given you proven performance figures to back up my viewpoint that I personally went out there and achieved rather than just talking on a forum. There's a big difference between saying and doing!
   
3. 
   I say that a small single turbo is a viable 'upgrade' alternative if you were thinking about making the switch to hybrids as it does offer spool on a par with hybrids, a good chunk more power and a smoother more linear and so more useable delivery of that power. In other words, I can see that a small single is an 'upgrade' that delivers on what the hybrids promise but don't really deliver.
   
4. 
   I say that the cost isn't hugely different - hybrids new are £2k. PHR street kit new isn't as cheap as it was because of the collapse of the £vs$ but still comes in around £2.5k delivered. Nic was offering HKS set up kits for RHD cars along with Garrett turbos to form a complete single turbo kit for less than the equivalent PHR kit price, so that £500 difference could be less. The labour time to fit the hybrids is more because it is quite complex to build up the OEM turbo system in comparison to a nice simple and tidy single turbo which eliminates most of the complicated pipework and hosing that goes with the stock twins and sequential system. So shall we say 4hrs labour saved at £60/hr? That means our £500 difference is down to £260. Mapping costs for both will be similar but I'll let someone like Ryan comment on that. The total cost of ownership with the single should be cheaper also given that should it fail, it's very easy to swap out and you're only paying for one turbo rebuild or replacement rather than two again and the more expensive labour again.
   
5. 
   I say that the same supporting mods are necessary for each if you are comparing a well setup configuration which is required for either to prove reliable - extra fuelling in the form of larger injectors and a walbro pump, mappable ECU to control that extra fuelling - piggyback or standalone, both could be argued for either config, a decent IC, colder plugs, decent exhaust system and decats, an uprated clutch if you're manual, worry about the autobox / fit a cooler if you're auto, etc. etc. These are the things banded about that make 'going single' '£10k' when in fact the same items are prerequisite for 'going hybrids'. If you cut corners for either config, you'll likely sacrifice reliability. What are you looking for? Fast, Cheap, Reliable - pick two.
   

Now, I'm not averse to people expressing an opinion, but claiming that hybrids 'fail 2,000 miles later' is simply not true if they are good and the car is mapped correctly.

 

I was drawing attention to the fact that in previous debates on this subject I hadn't factored in the worrying trend of hybrids failing... which recently we are seeing more and more of - it isn't something from the past. It's not definite, but people with working hybrids that haven't failed seem to be in the minority. But then that's subjective, just like the extra 'urge' of hybrids

 

IanC had his hybrids on his car for about 4 to 5 years before I bought them. I then used them for about a year and a half before selling them on. They were always strong and reliable. I did the conversion to hybrids for about £2k and they provided me with a good alternative to going single which would have cost me much more to do with a manifold etc.

 

Ian's car was a good example of well setup, reliable hybrids. Over and above that everything else is speculative. Such cases, IMO, are now the minority with hybrids. I don't think they are a good alternative to going small single for my reasons stated above. On cost, see points 4 and 5 above.

 

It all depends what we want from our cars. I liked the sequential system - not everyone does, but I did. I kept this while gaining a fair amount of power over BPU. Hybrids aren't for everyone and I'm not going to tell anyone that they should be the preferred route, but for some people, they can still be a viable route to getting a noticeable improvement in performance.

 

I like the sequential system too. So I've stuck with stock JDM Ceramics Hybrids are a viable route to a negligable gain in performance IMO - this isn't speculative as I've given proven real world performance data. 20bhp on the dyno translates to bugger all in the real world, especially with the extra lag over stock A small single on the other hand, is a viable route to getting a noticeable improvement in performance.

 

Telling people that hybrids will require replacement after a couple of thousand miles is just untrue.

 

As above, not saying will, just noting the increasing frequency of failure.

 

These hybrids are up for £1000.

 

You need to compare apples with apples - those are used hybrids. Used single kits can be found on ebay for similar money. Would I touch either? No, I like to buy new as I believe in less hassle. You may get lucky with used, but I've been burned before and have turned my back on the used market for most things.

 

A single kit is going to cost you a minmum of £2000, even more at the moment with the US exchange rate as it is.

 

This is true, but then new hybrids are also £2k. See point 4 above on cost comparison.

 

Then factor in the extras not included in turbo kits such as DBB water feed lines and that £1000 is a hell of a lot cheaper than any reputable single kit.

 

PHR street kit isn't DBB IIRC, although I agree there may be some 'adjustment' necessary to exhaust piping with the kit looking at Lui's recent thread. Maybe £50's worth for such modification? In the case of Nic's kits they should be 100% bolt on given they're designed for RHD cars. DBB water line kits if needed are around £75 delivered for everyones info, looking at MVP's website. Again that £1k you quote is a used price, not really a comparison.

 

I agree that a single kit is quicker to fit but it won't be £1500 cheaper....then factor in the mapping differences too.

 

£240 cheaper I reckon in point 4 above. The £1500 is irrelevant as already mentioned given you are comparing used hybrids with a new small single kit.

 

I have had a set of turbotechnics turbos on my car for 40,000 and they have never ever missed a beat or shedded a puff of smoke.

 

I think you're one of the lucky ones In fact this may be a trend in that turbotechnics ones seem to be reliable given that's what has been on Justin's car for a long time. I don't however think they've given you much in the way of extra performance over stock JDM Ceramics and IMO a small single would have been a better move.

 

I you are looking for sub 480bhp flywheel power, you want to keep insurance cheap then hybrids are great. I personally love the pull of a seq twin setup and that lazy sub 3000rpm surge is great.

 

That power figure is speculative and IMO translates to not a lot of difference to a normal BPU+ car on the road. Insurance is bugger all difference for me personally but that's worth checking into for anyone considering either route. I also love the pull of the sequential twin setup - hence I've stayed stock JDM ceramics so far which don't have the increased lag of hybrids and offer roughly the same overall performance.

 

I have never been in another TT on stock based turbos that pulls as hard as mine and that includes stock, BPU and vvti bpu's in both manual and auto and I only run 1.15bar. So...naturally I don't agree with the "hybrid slating" and making apples to orange comparisons of drag racing times between two different cars is no fair way to draw conclusions.

 

Speculative opinion again, I think my comparison is the closest real world data anyone is going to get on the subject of stock JDM Ceramics vs. hybrids. I think the only 'upgrade' route here is a small single kit.

 

Cont'd on next post.... reached character limit!

[tDR]

This is a very interesting thread. I always presumed that hybrids were a simple switch for stock. I understand that you probably wouldn't be able to crank them right up without injectors and some mapping but i though you could swap them right out with J-Spec's, crank them up to 1.2 bar and have the job done.

 

I thought in order to have a reliable well sorted single you need to put away 10k if not doing it yourself? Thats what i have read on every single thread on this forum (almost). To maximise hybrids i realise you would need the turbo's themselves, ECU, Injectors, mapping and fitting.

 

Am i missing something? By my count that would cost about 2k all in + fitting costs = nowhere near 10k.

 

I would love to go single but i don't have 10k to throw at my car to make it worth 2k more than it is (if i'm lucky) and i did think about hybrids for a while. I was thinking i could do it without the ECU and Injectors, for the moment, as long as i didn't crank up the boost.

 

I think points 4 & 5 above covers this - exactly why I've put in the effort to construct such a post to lay all cards on the table and let people see the reality of these options.

 

Hope I haven't ruffled too many feathers!

 

Cheers,

 

Brian.

[dandan]

The hybrids are new (edit - but the actuators are not)

Edited December 11, 2008 by dandan (see edit history)

[Branners]

I think part of the problem with hybrids is that nobody really knows what that means. IanC's hybrids obviously worked well, but could somebody build a set to the same spec now and make them last as long? I doubt if anybody could be sure.

 

It's the uncertainty of hybrids that worries me. I have heard of so many sets of second hand hybrids failing shortly after fitting, but the same can also be said of second hand stock units. It's all about how they were built, treated during their life and how they were stored.

 

Most seconds hand turbos get taken off and literally flung in a corner. Dust, dirt and spiders get in there, then they get shipped by ParcelFarce who treat them with the same love and care that they do for all their items. By the time they arrive chances are they are dusty, oil passageways are clogged and they have been dropped. Those that have been carefully stored and shipped seem to survive much better.

 

I personally wouldnt go hybrids over j-spec ceramics, but then I changed from a t-61 car back to a bone stock twin turbo so I don't really have the same desire for bhp figures, I prefer as little lag as possible.

[L33]

just to lighten the mood, you said new hybrids are 2k, im selling new ones for 1k bargain!

[tDR]

just to lighten the mood, you said new hybrids are 2k, im selling new ones for 1k bargain!

 

They're not really 'new' unless bought direct from Envy or whichever other trade reseller

 

I'm sure there are likely warranty implications....

 

Cheers,

 

Brian.

[Ian C]

After years being single turbo'd I wouldn't go back to the sequential setup even though I used to say I loved it. The faux lag point of 4000rpm has actually made me think something was wrong with the car at first, I was so used to the delivery of a single tubbie. However, that's just my opinion. The initial surge of that first turbo spinning up is crazy though, no single can come close to that (but then of course it flatlines ) Anyway, here's what I can add to this thread:

 

Regarding power:

My Supra came with the hybrids installed and they were a mystery unknown spec. A shame, as they were bloody good. My engine let go early on in my Supra ownership life and they survived that. The replacement engine came with j-spec turbos on it and while the initial 1st turbo surge was harder, it then felt comparatively weak after that. No placebo there, it was well off the power. I swapped back on the hybrids and all was good again.

 

We went to a dyno day ages ago and all the stockers were pulling 280 to 250bhp depending on state of tune and mine got to about 450bhp. Dyno inaccuracies aside that's still a heck of a jump up so it's again not placebo or seat-of-pants. I also had a roll-on with a stock j-spec once where I was stationary and they came past at 15-20mph. By the time they hit about 100mph I was past doing 120mph+. Not too scientific but the fact is I reeled them in and strolled past.

 

I'm certainly NOT going to use my drag racing performance to shore up my argument as I'm terrible at it And that's all in the launch anyway

 

I have at home (lost my copy of everything at work but I'll have to bring it all back in again I thinK!) an old spreadsheet where I think I compared performance of stock vs hybrids on my car, can't recall.

 

Regarding reliability:

Mine lasted 40,000 miles, were carefully removed and stored in sealed plastic bags on a shelf, went to Supragal, never got installed unfortunately, went to Soop Dogg, got installed and run for a while, were again removed carefully and stored sympathetically, and were sold on to someone else, can't recall who now but I mapped their car with them on and as far as I know they are still going strong. I think the essence here is the removal, storage, and fitting. I had the j-specs off my replacement engine sat in the garage for TWO YEARS before selling them to someone and as far as I know they are still going strong too - because they were bagged, sealed, and stored away from accidental clobberings.

 

Don't forget we had a shitload of single turbo and engine failures a while back and people started saying they were an unreliable disaster - until finally the reason came out and the fanboi worshipping stopped So hybrids, when done correctly, aren't inherently unreliable or fragile.

 

Regarding value:

Ah, now here it gets interesting. Hybridising and balancing a turbo as a custom one-off job is an expensive business, hence the cost of them from Envy. Any cheaper and it'd start erring on the "shonky" side and then you would see premature failures, so don't start thinking it's Envy taking you for a ride. Back 5 years or so, single turbo kits were rare and very expensive, as were the supporting mods for them. As single turbo kits have dropped in price over the years they have certainly become more competitive vs hybrids. But there is a lot more modification needed and supporting components, and lets not forget the insurance implications - you don't have to declare hybrids, no-one will ever know

 

So there you go. Maybe the time for hybrids is past simply because the cost of single turbo kits have dropped and most of the fly by night crappy tuners have finally died the death they deserved so you tend to get them put together properly too. Then again maybe there is still a niche for them if you simply can't spend the extra cash or like the sequential system or don't want the insurance problems. But like everything else, you buy cheap you pay twice - and you want to get second hand ones from people who you know will have stored them sympathetically Oh, and transported by the buyer or seller of course

 

-Ian

Edited December 13, 2008 by Ian C (see edit history)

[Ian C]

Just scratched up a quick cost comparison. In order to keep it simple and clear we'll assume that anything not mentioned is either stock or the same whichever path is chosen (e.g. ECU, bigger injectors, fuel pump)

 

Hybrids are £2,000

 

Comprehensive single turbo kit from MVP = about £3,000 including VAT. Customs duty might be dodged, if not that's another £200+ and I'm not sure what the shipping cost is, figure another £100 on that.

 

I'm going to class labour costs as the same because removal is identical, fitting of the single turbo is easier but there is more change involved so it would roughly end up taking just as long.

 

The hybrids would need a new exhaust gasket set at about £110 (well it was 4 years ago haha). The single turbo install needs new manifold gaskets, and some fabbing work to sort out the plumbing to the intercooler and replumbing the breather system. I'd say that roughly balances out as well.

 

The single kit needs a BOV sourcing and welding in unless you choose to run without one.

 

Factoring in all that and ancillary upgrades and mapping being the same no matter which path you take, the cost difference makes the single turbo kit between £1,000 and £1,500 more expensive. Draw your own conclusions from that

 

The single may produce enough power where you have to start looking at the clutch/autobox as well, and costs start to spiral from there on in, but I think that's beyond the scope of this comparison - just turn the boost down

 

-Ian

[tDR]

Agree largely with the sentiment of your post Ian but gotta ask you about a few things:

 

We went to a dyno day ages ago and all the stockers were pulling 280 to 250bhp depending on state of tune and mine got to about 450bhp

 

^^ That can't be right. Most BPU's I've seen on the dyno at Dastek up here hit circa 380 - 390bhp. Surely that's a typo? Hybrids making up to 200bhp more?!? Stockers at Dastek make circa 320bhp (we're talking fly, right?) so to me it seems an accurate kinda dyno, if anything a little more pessimistic than Surrey RR figures looking at the BPU car figures. A car running hybrids tends to already be BPU+ so it would be nicer to see comparitive figures with one of those - I'm guessing we'd be in excess of 400bhp. Hybrids have made up to 450bhp on Surrey RR IIRC going by grahamc's car.

 

I always like to think drag terminal speeds are the best indicator of power in the real world. Not to labour a point but again Justin's car with hybrids at 1.6bar boost, me with JDM Ceramics at 1.1bar boost - both in steroid enhanced drag spec admittedly - on the same strip on the same day saw me with 121mph terminals and him with 119mph terminals.

 

I also can't agree with the lesser pull in 2nd turbo territory, given when running a hi stall on the drag strip you are effectively jumping straight into 2nd turbo territory off the launch and staying there for the duration of the run. Justin also ran a similarly rated PI hi stall so that's comparing like for like.

 

I also had a roll-on with a stock j-spec once where I was stationary and they came past at 15-20mph. By the time they hit about 100mph I was past doing 120mph+. Not too scientific but the fact is I reeled them in and strolled past.

 

Heyyy, come on - a BPU+ car on JDM Ceramics would have pulled the same trick over a stocker IMO.

 

On reliability of hybrids, this post by James at ToyotaGT really stuck in my mind:

 

Righto im typing this and just waiting to get shot down but here goes anyways.

 

Although there is a large amount of room for human error when hybridising a turbo, im not convince thats what causes the fialures alone.

 

The way I see it. The stock toyota unit fresh from factory are better than any rebuilt turbo, its fitted to engine it was designed for and 100% in the condition it was designed.

 

A Garrett / turbonetics unit is designed and built to that design.

 

Hybrid turbos are about turning a turbo designed for one use and getting it machined and rebuilt to a different spec with fabricated parts fitted.

 

Having said all that I have been running a hybrid turbo on my mr2 for an age and had no trouble.

 

I have used many different companies for hybrid turbos and non of them have been reliable time and time again. As a company we have seen a 50% failure rate on hybrid turbos no matter what company they were made at.

 

What really matters if your going to get involved with hybrids is that you dont buy direct from the manufacturer becuase they treat the individual badly and always always blame failures on oil contaminiation. Wherever possible buy from a supplier who has a track record in great customer service and sell alot of turbos, these companies will have some purchasing power and the manufacturer is 100% more likely to help with warranty issues.

 

now shoot me down.

 

James

 

^^ A respected garage that sees and fits hybrids from new regularly claiming only 50% reliability certainly shocks me. Lui's car again was a good example of this - brand new hybrids, not used. It also seems the manufacturers have a shocking attitude always claiming failures are down to 'oil contamination' - to me that shows they know there's a lot of comeback on what they sell. If you go hybrids the above advice is sound in that it's best to go through the likes of Envy who have the relationship with the manufacturer to be able to clobber them around the head on warranty claims.

 

Fair enough on your cost comparison Ian although to me that looks like a BL67 kit pricewise rather than the small single I was pitching as the viable alternative like the PHR street or Nic kit.

 

I realise I'm potentially sounding like someone who has something against hybrids... I don't, I just know on which option my money will be going and have tried to explain why for other peoples benefit so they can make the decision that's right for them with all factors out in the open.

 

Cheers,

 

Brian.

[StuartW]

[/GRIN]Thank you IanR TDR and Soop Dogg for your comprehensive replies   I think i will stick with my Single after all   [GRIN]

/vbb/images/smilies/bbcode_grin.gif

[L33]

just shows the knowledge of this forum! fantastic! stu can you look on my single post need your input please cheers mate, and cheers for the phone call other day

[Ian C]

^^ That can't be right. Most BPU's I've seen on the dyno at Dastek up here hit circa 380 - 390bhp. Surely that's a typo? Hybrids making up to 200bhp more?!? Stockers at Dastek make circa 320bhp (we're talking fly, right?) so to me it seems an accurate kinda dyno, if anything a little more pessimistic than Surrey RR figures looking at the BPU car figures. A car running hybrids tends to already be BPU+ so it would be nicer to see comparitive figures with one of those - I'm guessing we'd be in excess of 400bhp. Hybrids have made up to 450bhp on Surrey RR IIRC going by grahamc's car.

 

heck of a typo that one, I meant 280 to 350, not 250. The next strongest there was Alex's old MSB one at about 380 I think, or 390 - it was BPU stockers (with damaged vanes!) and we never did figure out how it made so much more power.

 

I ran 1.4bar of boost but was on stock cams at the time. I had an FMIC but then so did some others there - it was a mix of cars from stock to BPU-to-the-hilt. The performance gap was certainly there. I'm unconvinced j-spec turbos will crack 400bhp, at least not easily, but without back to back dyno testing of two otherwise-similar cars all we can do is theorise

 

I recall at a track day when Paul Whiffin first fitted hybrids and cams he was flattening everything in sight as well.

 

I always like to think drag terminal speeds are the best indicator of power in the real world. Not to labour a point but again Justin's car with hybrids at 1.6bar boost, me with JDM Ceramics at 1.1bar boost - both in steroid enhanced drag spec admittedly - on the same strip on the same day saw me with 121mph terminals and him with 119mph terminals.

 

I took the restrictor ring out of mine once as a test and got 1.5 to 1.6bar out of it. The performance drop-off was shocking as the turbos fell way out of efficiency. That I have got recorded! I think at 1.6bar perhaps Justin shot himself in the foot. I can't remember my best terminal speed on the hybrids at TOTB, it was something between 121 and 126mph and I'm crap at drag racing.

 

Didn't you run race fuel and wind the timing up way past the point you'd use for normal driving?

 

I also can't agree with the lesser pull in 2nd turbo territory, given when running a hi stall on the drag strip you are effectively jumping straight into 2nd turbo territory off the launch and staying there for the duration of the run. Justin also ran a similarly rated PI hi stall so that's comparing like for like.

 

Not sure what you're referring to, lesser pull in 2nd turbo territory?

 

Heyyy, come on - a BPU+ car on JDM Ceramics would have pulled the same trick over a stocker IMO.

 

Well I never met a non-hybrid car that could keep up I've been a passenger in a truckload of different Supras doing mapping and hybrids are stronger than stockers as far as I'm concerned. Also, the fuelling requirements are different, hybrids need more fuel at a given pressure Not that much more but it's there.

 

I'm not saying the performance difference is teh awesomez, but I'd say 40 to 50bhp more is do-able with everything else like for like. I think the main reason for that is because you can run a few psi more boost in hybrids without leaving the efficiency island. If you ran 1.2bar on stockers and hybrids there wouldn't be that much of a difference (minor gain on the hybrids due to less heating), but if you ran 1.4bar on both, the j-specs would choke up, lose you power, and probably explode while the hybrids would stroll on into the sunset.

 

On reliability of hybrids, this post by James at ToyotaGT really stuck in my mind:

 

Well I can't comment on all that. Perhaps he should change suppliers My experience was that they lasted just fine, I know Heckler is happy with his and there are a couple of others out there but they never really got as popular following as the singles did so it's hard to say. I'm not denying failures, I just think dodgy handling causes most of them. The bearing cartridges in dinky turbos are pretty small.

 

 

Fair enough on your cost comparison Ian although to me that looks like a BL67 kit pricewise rather than the small single I was pitching as the viable alternative like the PHR street or Nic kit.

 

I looked it up on MVPs site just before posting that, it was the small stage one:

Boost Logic Stage 1 Turbo Kit for 1993-98 Supra TT - 57, 58, or 61mm Turbo

Part # BL TK MK4TT 57-61

Your Price $3,699.00

 

And I used xe.com to get todays exchange rate, applied 15% vat, and couldn't find the shipping or the current Customs Duty anywhere so I didn't include it in the main calculation. C'mon you should know me better than that

 

Which small single kit did you refer to?

 

I realise I'm potentially sounding like someone who has something against hybrids... I don't, I just know on which option my money will be going and have tried to explain why for other peoples benefit so they can make the decision that's right for them with all factors out in the open.

 

Cheers,

 

Brian.

 

Well like I said, back then a single turbo "kit" was the turbo, manifold, wastegate and downpipe if you were lucky. And it cost 5 grand or more. Hybrids were a very viable option then. Now you've got a comprehensive kit with better materials for almost half the price, whereas hybrids haven't changed much due to the bespoke nature and low volume of them. So they do lose out in that respect. It's all about the individual's personal choice in the end, all this waffle is simply giving them the ammunition to choose. A strong hybrid car is a great street weapon in my opinion, but I'd still go single if I could stretch the extra cash.

 

-Ian

[L33]

very good arguments for both sides it does make it hard, down to the set up and builder! stil all this stil aint selling my hybrids been months

[tDR]

Lee your hybrids look like a bargain mate, don't mean to be on a downer on your personal hybrids. At £1k with the complimentary extra fuelling parts thrown in it's a gamble I'd likely take if my stockers failed and I didn't have the chunk of extra change to go small single over your hybrids.

 

Didn't you run race fuel and wind the timing up way past the point you'd use for normal driving?

 

Absolutely - I believe my best time that day was yielded on 7 degrees advance over stock in the meat of the powerband and I was running Sunoco GT Plus fuel (109RON unleaded) to support that. That's kinda my point with all my drag shennanigans though - proving I didn't need the hybrids running silly boost or aftermarket cams other people said were necessary to pull the best times. Just a well optimised BPU+ setup...

 

IIRC Justins car runs a Mines ECU so his ignition timing would have been on the aggressive side also - running C16 (117RON leaded) was no doubt his engine's saving grace that day with the boost cranked up so high and the very hot weather.

 

I looked it up on MVPs site just before posting that, it was the small stage one:

Boost Logic Stage 1 Turbo Kit for 1993-98 Supra TT - 57, 58, or 61mm Turbo

Part # BL TK MK4TT 57-61

Your Price $3,699.00

 

And I used xe.com to get todays exchange rate, applied 15% vat, and couldn't find the shipping or the current Customs Duty anywhere so I didn't include it in the main calculation. C'mon you should know me better than that

 

Which small single kit did you refer to?

 

The PHR Street kit as above. It's almost the exact same price though at $3,695. You're right though, need to price it more accurately giving the shocking strength of the pound now - looking at xe.com brings that in at £2,484. Then you have the shipping on top... personally I've not factored in VAT or duty as I tend to get lucky but that is maybe £200 more than I was expecting for the kit itself. So all in I reckon small single to be £700 - £1k more expensive than hybrids. Heck, let's just agree and call it £1k more as a nice rounded comparative figure for future discussions?

 

It's all about the individual's personal choice in the end, all this waffle is simply giving them the ammunition to choose.

 

Amen to that!

 

Cheers,

 

Brian.