Weird timing issue, Soarer + emanage

[Hermit]

Really baffled by this, not sure how much it has to do with the emanage ultimate, but something's not right!

 

The only map getting used is the airflow output map, using the greddy sensor to replace the stock one. Plan was to reduce fuel with that just enough that the injectors came off 100% (which the EMU has trouble reading) and then use the injector adjustment map from there on. Didn't even get close to that stage.

 

The initial map gave out a stock signal for pressures up to 0.8 bar, and a reduced signal from then on. For full throttle runs up the strip, it's not significantly different to just clamping the voltage - at the 1.1 bar I'm running, this map was putting out 4.2V, which the ECU would think was 0.84 bar. (Fuel cut on a Soarer is 4.35V, a bit over 0.9 bar).

 

Did a couple of runs with that, think it all looks ok, but obviously still very rich and injectors at 100%...

 

 

I adjusted the map to give out 4.0V at 1.1 bar, which the ECU would think was 0.73 bar (still a little more than stock max boost), and the timing was all over the place - retarded below 6500 rpm and too advanced above...

 

 

So I went back to the initial map. The timing was still not right though, but not quite as mad as before...

 

 

Next day, I did another test run and the timing looked ok again. The only real difference I can spot between this and the runs from the day before is that the intake temp is lower (but all the previous runs had similar intake temps to each other, so that wouldn't explain why reverting to the initial map didn't bring the timing back in line the day before).

 

 

Any ideas or suggestions for things to test would be massively appreciated!

[Tricky-Ricky]

First off I'm not familiar with the Soarer lump.

Let me get this straight, you are reducing the signal via the airflow map, what is the adjustment and where?

and then fine tuning it with the injector map?

The only thing i can think of is that by using the airflow map the ECU will want to adjust the timing dependant on the settings in the airflow map, which is why i only use the injector map, although i do use the global injector settings, but this seems far more stable than the airflow map, although it uses similar calc.

 

Your RPM seems very up and down?? or am i reading the wrong colour? and the injector DC seem all over the place?

Have you tried logging both in and out for airflow and DC?

[Hermit]

I'm using the airflow output map rather than the airflow adjutment map, so the airflow in (from the stock sensor) isn't used at all. And I never got as far as using the injector map.

 

The airflow map is almost a straight combination of using the greddy sensor to replicate the stock voltages, and an FCD...

 

 

(The upward flick at the end just puts fuel cut at about 1.3 bar).

 

The second map I tried was basically the same but with the plateau 0.2V lower.

 

I know that if the airflow signal is reduced too much the timing is badly affected, but I've hardly reduced it at all - it's still above stock max boost!

 

The injector duty isn't read properly by the EMU when it's at 100%, so it flicks between 0 and 100.

 

Not sure what you mean about the RPMs, the trace is a bit noisy, and on the second screenshot there's a dip just before the second to third gearchange - I'm worried that was det caused by the timing

 

Quick way to describe a Soarer 1JZ is that it's a smaller 2JZ with parallel instead of sequential turbos

[Tricky-Ricky]

I think i see what you mean, still can't see why you are using the airflow map at all? i get good results with just the global injector map for rough scale, the dedicated fuel cut map, and then just use the injector map for fine tuning, and the same for timing, get no det problems, and i don't use much in the way of minus adjustments.

Interesting about the 100% DC, never seen this happen.

[Hermit]

Because I don't trust the EMU to reduce the injector duration properly at 100% when it thinks it's 0% already!

 

And besides, for all but the second screenshot above, the airflow map was essentially the same as an FCD... but the third screenshot still shows duff timing. This is really the thing I can't think of any reason for.

 

Global injector map... do you mean the bit in the parameter settings where you tell it you have larger injectors? If so, what signal(s) does that affect? I thought that was airflow... or was that only the blue?

[Swampy442]

Are injectors not reslly dodgy at 100% duty? My ultimate (as you know Jon cos I bothered you about it lol) had timing issues as well, except my timing signal completely disappeared, dropped of the page to -50 or something. where do the timing signals come from anyway?

[Hermit]

Don't, Craig... don't... we know what happened next to your engine...

 

Yes, strictly speaking injectors shouldn't be run at more than about 85%, and even that isn't ideal... but as IanC has pointed out a few times, pretty much every BPU Supra with an FCD is running them at 100%, and it doesn't seem to do them any harm!

[Tricky-Ricky]

Because I don't trust the EMU to reduce the injector duration properly at 100% when it thinks it's 0% already!

 

And besides, for all but the second screenshot above, the airflow map was essentially the same as an FCD... but the third screenshot still shows duff timing. This is really the thing I can't think of any reason for.

 

Global injector map... do you mean the bit in the parameter settings where you tell it you have larger injectors? If so, what signal(s) does that affect? I thought that was airflow... or was that only the blue?

 

Yes in theory it should be the airflow that it affects, but i have long suspected that it accomplishes it in a slightly different way, as i have not noticed any odd timing issues, IE det.

 

I have only ever been able to show the additional ignition timing that i have added, never total advance, so for this reason i take it with a pinch of salt;)

 

As for injector duty, i never even saw 100% even when i was BPU+ so have always found the settings in this map pretty stable, well at least i can achieve pretty stable AFRs

i do suspect that getting a compatible injector lag is key to this.

 

I must admit that i very seldom use the EMU logging, other than to affirm my other data logs from my LM-1 and then its usually to check max DC, everything else is done via AFR, knock and EGT.

[Hermit]

I have only ever been able to show the additional ignition timing that i have added, never total advance, so for this reason i take it with a pinch of salt;)

I haven't seen anything in any of my logs that would suggest that the ignition timing isn't being logged correctly, so I'm pretty sure it's working fine on my setup. Do many people find it doesn't work?

[Tricky-Ricky]

I don't know, but it may be down to how the signal is being read, for instance i cannot get an RPM signal if i select the crank sensor as source, what do you use for this?

[Hermit]

Don't think I've ever tried reading RPM off the crank sensor, just left it at the default of 'RPM signal', which is wired to IGf. Makes sense that if you can't read RPM off it, you won't be able to read timing. I'll see if mine can later - I suspect it'll work, but it won't hurt to check.

[SimonR]

Jon, I don't know anything about the EMU but I did have some wierdness on the EMB when I started out - fixed by making sure that the I had the correct firmware version for the client I was using. Are there any such issues with the EMU perhaps?

[Hermit]

Yes, well it seems just as fussy anyway... found that out when I first got it, thought it was broken

Definately matching versions now

 

Tried the crank sensor for RPM this evening - works great, much smoother trace than before, think I'll stick with that setting

That does mean that the logged timing is most likely accurate though

[Hermit]

Still totally baffled by this, and it's proving hard to replicate the right conditions for it to show itself (and not sure what they are anyway). It's got to the point where I'd be happy to stump up cash to get someone to look at it, but if it's difficult to reproduce the problem that could get very expensive!

 

The dangerous part of the problem is the advanced timing at high revs, but I'm thinking that the retarded timing at lower revs is perhaps a better pointer to the cause of the problem...

 

Could it be a faulty knock sensor? Or that there was some knock causing the retard, which then wasn't registered by the ECU for some reason at higher revs?

 

One thing I've identified as faulty is the PCV, there's a fair bit of oil in my intercooler piping as a result. Could this be causing timing weirdness?

 

Kind of hoping someone might've seen something similar or have a good theory... even if it was on a Supra the info would most likely still be useful to me.

[Swampy442]

I cant see the pcv having anything to do with the timing Jon. Hope you get it sorted cos Ive read somewhere else the EMU has history of timing related problems. Also might help when I swap mine over, give me things to check to avoid another blow-up lol

[Hermit]

The PCV might be a red herring, but I've read that oil in the intake charge can make detonation more likely, is that right? Still, I'm going to stay off boost until I fix it, so no more testing... not that it's the right weather for that anyway!

 

I really don't think it's an emanage issue in this case. The emanage isn't set to adjust timing, and I'm convinced it's reading the timing correctly (no '-120 degrees' or other oddities). I'm sure the timing was actually changing, I could hear it when it happened.

[Swampy442]

Not with a standard engine running not much over stock boost mate, its more likely to make it miss-fire lol.

I heard mine change, the rpm just died off, and the only way to restore it was to rev it to 1100/1200 then once the signal was restored the revs would pick up. Once that happened, idle was restored.