There's probably no God

[Thorin]

I say it almost every day to my 'special table', after making love to it. I have a life-size picture of Bob Carolgees pasted to it. I make a honking noise like a goose throughout the process.

 

So would you say you do this religiously?

[ivan]

He's having a pop at Harry Potter now. Whatever next?

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/3255972/Harry-Potter-fails-to-cast-spell-over-Professor-Richard-Dawkins.html

[carl0s]

What a great thing. Here's a good article, where it all started I think: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/oct/21/religion-advertising

[Lbm]

What a great thing. Here's a good article, where it all started I think: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/oct/21/religion-advertising

 

Outstanding detective work

A bit like Michael's first post on this thread then.

[Carl_S]

Nice to see a God thread back out. Bit like me coming out really (flopping out). I too don't like dawkins writings cos they are 1) too intelgent 2) too preachy weachy 3) not fun enuff. thans.

[extendor]

Plenty of atheists have, though. Stalin, for example, managed to become one of the greatest mass-murderers in history without bending the knee to any higher power.

 

His buddy Mao had 'something' to do with 70,000,000 deaths in China as well aznd not a prayer in earshot.

[Carl_S]

I bet he bent his knee to his super ego though - which is surely a higher power?!

[Lbm]

Hello Carl. Where have you been?

[Carl_S]

Hello LBM I have been on holiday, then working a lot and getting laid. Now we are no longer togther so I come here to relax and enjoy myself a little.. And you? How have you been?

[Lbm]

Hello LBM I have been on holiday, then working a lot and getting laid. Now we are no longer togther so I come here to relax and enjoy myself a little.. And you? How have you been?

 

Good work

 

Been contributing on here a bit recently and have had a busy summer with the band. Went down last Sunday to the Basingstoke meet. Nice run down actually and met some new and old faces

 

Back to this Lord thread then...

[chilli]

haha I missed this posting, that's funny.

 

It's just as likely god is a big red bendy bus as anything else that can be imagined.

 

If it gets just 1% of people engaging their brains, it's probably been a massive success

[RedM]

Nice to see a God thread back out. Bit like me coming out really (flopping out). I too don't like dawkins writings cos they are 1) too intelgent 2) too preachy weachy 3) not fun enuff. thans.

 

Oh the irony!

[benkei]

He's having a pop at Harry Potter now. Whatever next?

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/3255972/Harry-Potter-fails-to-cast-spell-over-Professor-Richard-Dawkins.html

 

He has a good point though. Isn't the main problem convincing people of things, like God and Hell, from a young age a form of brainwashing? Kids don't know any better and, like me when I was young, took whatever an adult said as gold, 100% the truth, as they know better. Only when I got older and started thinking for myself and creating my own opinion did I start finding about just HOW MUCH adults lie! Parent's lie to kids to protect them from the truth as they probably couldn't understand it (where do babies come from?) But adults like to other adults for their own selfish benefit (stealing, cheating, hiding things, religion, etc)

 

I don't see the harm in books, cartoons or films, like Harry Potter, as long as we all KNOW they are made up and not real. It's entertainment at the end of the day, and we all need some kind of entertainment to take our minds off how f*****d up the world is for a couple of hours.

[Ian C]

In order to give Cliff a heart attack (and possibly throw him off his stride next table-time) I'm going to speak up on another "social issue" thread

 

I like the idea of these adverts, bendy buses aside. I really like the fact some people are going to put that message out, in a nice non-confrontational fashion. "Sorry folks, probably no god, why not just relax and enjoy life?" Marvellous. Can't do any harm can it? I note the religious nutcase contradicts himself sideways in a matter of a couple of sentences and then makes a not-overly-disguised call for the sheep of his flock to deface the buses in retaliation to a bit of common sense

 

OK so a lost of scientists may be religious but I bet it doesn't *help* with the science side of things I think it's just a crutch for the weak minded, as harsh as that sounds I can't think of another reason for believing in an imaginary friend who'll make it alright in the end

 

And the thing about taking scientifict facts on faith because you personally haven't performed the experiment and done the work, well the thing that defines "science" is repeatability. If you had a moment of "Right! You bastards! Lets settle this once and for all!" and got the people who said atoms were real and the people who said God was real and got them together like scrapheap challenge or something, one team against the other... unless Team God got Team Science zapped by a lightning bolt from upon high while they chalk away on their blackboards, I know which team is going to be able to repeatedly prove their assertations time and again with observation and experimentation and which team is going to look like a bunch of bullshitting plonkers.

 

-Ian

[Tannhauser]

In order to give Cliff a heart attack (and possibly throw him off his stride next table-time) I'm going to speak up on another "social issue" thread

 

I like the idea of these adverts, bendy buses aside. I really like the fact some people are going to put that message out, in a nice non-confrontational fashion. "Sorry folks, probably no god, why not just relax and enjoy life?" Marvellous. Can't do any harm can it?

 

I have some comments to make on the Scrapheap challenge analogy. That aside, for the moment.

 

The comment on the bus seems to be implying that religious people - let's stick to Christians for a minute - are living lives of terrible self-denial on the basis of a false promise. There's everything wrong with this.

 

Firstly, I've met a lot of Christians over the years and none of them seemed to be struggling under a yoke of self-denial.

 

Secondly, underpinning the message is the view that self-denial is bad and we shouldn't be worrying about what God thinks. But most people aren't relaxing and enjoying life as much as possible, whether they are believers or not, are they? They are worrying about what society, parents, peers, employers think about them. We all live according to some sort of code, whether it's one learned from our parents and the TV set or from the Bible. So the message could also read simply "Stop worrying about being judged and enjoy life"

 

Thirdly, there's this risible assumption that Christians are going to be more relaxed and happy if only they would cast off their silly delusion. Now, I don't believe in God, which means that I have to run around like a headless chicken trying to cram in as may experiences as possible before my inevitable demise, probably preceded by a long, miserable period of incapacity an illness. I believe that my existence has served no purpose, as within sixty or so years, all the people's lives I have touched will have vanished; that consciousness in any form was an incredibly unlikely cosmological accident; that it doesn't really matter what humankind achieves because entropy will end everything eventually anyway, and so on. It's hardly a comforting belief system. Compared to that, following a few rules which pretty much fit in with our most noble sides seems a doddle.

 

So the slogan could read: "There's probably no God. You are a brief flickering flame in a vast, unending sea of blackness. There's no point to anything. Go home and weep"

 

Atheists who band together and form societies are a puzzle to me - what exactly do they have a shared love of? Nothing really, because there's nothing to celebrate within atheism. They get all of their kicks out of a largely unreasoned feeling of superiority over Christians. Bit like the Barry Boys site - what binds them together is just a need to look down on somebody.

[Tannhauser]

OK so a lost of scientists may be religious but I bet it doesn't *help* with the science side of things

 

I think that for some scientists, it actually does. If I think about the complexity of photosynthesis, or the difficulties in understanding the gap between genes (which , after all,code for proteins) and animal behaviour, sometimes the vagaries of an evolution seems such an unlikely explanation. As a scientist, you're studying the order and beauty of the natural world and it's sometimes difficult not to see some guiding force behind it.

 

I think it's just a crutch for the weak minded, as harsh as that sounds I can't think of another reason for believing in an imaginary friend who'll make it alright in the end

 

I'm sure that comfort and the need for a sense of order is a big part of it. But I'm surprised that this is the only reason you can imagine.

 

One other reason might be the need for something that lies beyond the mundane, corporeal world. Probably the wrong forum for this, but many people want something beyond the sensations of the moment, a big f*ck off telly and a fast car. They seek something glorious and profound. Some find it art, some in music, some in nature and some in God.

 

From Pascal's Wager to C.S. Lewis' Puddleglum in The Silver Chair, there's a bunch of arguments in favour of believing that have nothing to do with cowardice.

[Ian C]

Dammit I read all that and you didn't get to the good bit about Scrapheap Challenge

 

I like your bus slogan too but it's a bit goth for my age

 

I still don't agree about the scientist thing because if I resorted to thinking it was God every time things looked kinda complex, my work might suffer a tad as all I'd do is say "reboot them all and let God sort it out!". Oh no wait hang on

 

I agree with the art and music thing though, being creative is a great thing. Stiillllll can't quite compare "composing music" to going "there is an omnipotent being and dude, he seriously rocks. No, really".

 

Anyway that's getting silly now as I'm in a rush - I'm off shift and going home now, no doubt I'll contribute more when I'm next at work

 

-Ian

[Tannhauser]

Dammit I read all that and you didn't get to the good bit about Scrapheap Challenge

 

I haven't forgotten it, but I spend way too much time on this.

 

I like your bus slogan too but it's a bit goth for my age

 

Well, I wish I could say it was hyperbole. I just don't see atheism as a joyful, happier alternative to religion. It's as bleak as could be.

 

 

I still don't agree about the scientist thing because if I resorted to thinking it was God every time things looked kinda complex, my work might suffer a tad as all I'd do is say "reboot them all and let God sort it out!". Oh no wait hang on

 

It's an interesting comparison. You deal with a system of complexity, subtlety and order and you know that an intelligence must have guided its creation. Somebody wrote that software. So, for some scientists, they see those same characteristics in nature and find it hard to assign their authorship to pure reductionism, they see an intelligence behind the design. I believe it's called the 'watchmaker analogy'

 

I'm not sure what you're getting at when you say that resorting to God wouldn't help your work. I think you misunderstand how believing scientists fit God into the equation. Take Newton: he invented calculus to help him divine the workings of gravity, but as far as he was concerned, he was uncovering God's design. Same for Einstein, I'm not sure he believed in a 'personal God', but AFAIK he saw God's hand lying behind the relativistic universe.

 

I think that unless you are taking a creationist or fundamentalist position, which few Christians do*, then the existence of God is largely a philosophical question which those believing scientists would say was beyond the reach of their discipline.

 

 

I agree with the art and music thing though, being creative is a great thing. Stiillllll can't quite compare "composing music" to going "there is an omnipotent being and dude, he seriously rocks. No, really".

 

No, I think it's exactly the same thing. I'm not talking about rocking out to AC/DC. I'm saying that for some, music (listening or creating) engenders a state of mind that can only be called spiritual. It's something that is beyond everyday experience and that's what many need and crave. Feeling in touch with something beyond, something timeless and extraordinary, the brush with the mystical - that sounds like both music and also the cornerstone of the personal religious experience.

 

 

 

 

* That's the error that Dawkins repeats ad nauseam, the thing that plays to popular prejudices and makes atheist academics despair of him.

[chilli]

At the end of the day atheism isn't meant to be all fun and smiles - but it's not true to say all atheists are resigned to a life of miserable despair either.

 

Personally I'd say there's something quite sad about living a seemingly happy but ultimately deluded life, but it depends how you look at it I guess.

 

Is happiness reason enough to make something worth believing in? Is it wrong to face facts and sometimes think wow, things are not all roses? I'd say no on both fronts, it's healthy isn't it?

 

If it's ok to preach religion and build churches, it must be ok to at least voice alternative viewpoints, or we're not giving fair and unbiased freedom of speech. This messages can't do any harm.

 

If it's going to cause people to slip into miserable despair, those people probably need a lot of help anyway.

 

An atheists perspective might be a bit more brutal, but conversely it brings hope and happiness in other forms.

 

Everyone is entitled to believe what they want, but at the same time it should be ok to raise awareness that it's ok to question those beliefs. Religion and atheism are two opposing extremes of course, being agnostic is of course a much more diplomatic position.

 

I think Dawkins makes some good points but gets some bad press. I suspect he only comes across so strong/extremist himself because he has such a battle with institutionalised establishments and entrenched beliefs, sometimes you have to go a little extreme in the other direction to be heard from the other end of the spectrum I guess.

 

Anyway, you're not going to convert believers to atheists over night lol - but you might create a few agnostics on the way, and being agnostic isn't a bad place to be.

[Carl_S]

Cool LBM..

 

My view on the loard thread is this:

 

I forgot. Oh yeah, Dawkings belives religion is a power for bad so he feels he will help us as by the bendy bus messages etc. also i think he has a childish sense of humor.

 

what i think it wil achieve is getting a few laughs from people, and cause a greater campaign from religous people against it.

 

£5000 odd quid for a bus message or two sounds quite cheap though. almost worth advertising some of our more expensively made supes in that way, so as not to break them for parts.

 

 

And chilli, i dont think its worth calling xtians deluded since god does not exist, as you would not called a child deluded for beliving in santa claus.

[Tannhauser]

Interesting points from Mr. Chilli, but way too late to start on replying now.

[tbourner]

The comment on the bus seems to be implying that religious people - let's stick to Christians for a minute - are living lives of terrible self-denial on the basis of a false promise. There's everything wrong with this.

 

Firstly, I've met a lot of Christians over the years and none of them seemed to be struggling under a yoke of self-denial.

 

Secondly, underpinning the message is the view that self-denial is bad and we shouldn't be worrying about what God thinks. But most people aren't relaxing and enjoying life as much as possible, whether they are believers or not, are they? They are worrying about what society, parents, peers, employers think about them. We all live according to some sort of code, whether it's one learned from our parents and the TV set or from the Bible. So the message could also read simply "Stop worrying about being judged and enjoy life"

 

Thirdly, there's this risible assumption that Christians are going to be more relaxed and happy if only they would cast off their silly delusion. Now, I don't believe in God, which means that I have to run around like a headless chicken trying to cram in as may experiences as possible before my inevitable demise, probably preceded by a long, miserable period of incapacity an illness. I believe that my existence has served no purpose, as within sixty or so years, all the people's lives I have touched will have vanished; that consciousness in any form was an incredibly unlikely cosmological accident; that it doesn't really matter what humankind achieves because entropy will end everything eventually anyway, and so on. It's hardly a comforting belief system. Compared to that, following a few rules which pretty much fit in with our most noble sides seems a doddle.

 

So the slogan could read: "There's probably no God. You are a brief flickering flame in a vast, unending sea of blackness. There's no point to anything. Go home and weep"

 

Atheists who band together and form societies are a puzzle to me - what exactly do they have a shared love of? Nothing really, because there's nothing to celebrate within atheism. They get all of their kicks out of a largely unreasoned feeling of superiority over Christians. Bit like the Barry Boys site - what binds them together is just a need to look down on somebody.

That's a pretty negative view, I know what you're saying but I wouldn't claim that religious people 'struggle under a yoke of self-denial' anyway, and similarly aethiests don't all lay around thinking that 'it doesn't really matter what humankind achieves because entropy will end everything eventually'. Like you said:

many people want something beyond the sensations of the moment, a big f*ck off telly and a fast car. They seek something glorious and profound. Some find it art, some in music, some in nature and some in God.

We're all the same, it's unfair to say that aethiests can't have anything to live for or look forward to, because they get enjoyment from the experience, regardless of whether it all gets remembered by the next evolutionary generation of the universe or not. The whole thing about looking down on the 'deluded' religious types is because it seems that they give up some of their wordly excitement in favour of believing in a post-life party of some kind, and they work towards that instead of enjoying what they've got here and now.

On the flip side I (as an aethiest) wouldn't think to slam anyone elses choices in life and try to change them in any way (unlike some religious folks - but that's another story), I don't mind talking about it and sometimes it gets heated, but if they want to live in that way it's up to them. Also I'm the first person to say what good has come out of religion in the past; you've got to wonder if there wouldn't be so many scrotes on the streets if they still had the fear of God up 'em!

 

At the end of the day atheism isn't meant to be all fun and smiles - but it's not true to say all atheists are resigned to a life of miserable despair either.

 

Personally I'd say there's something quite sad about living a seemingly happy but ultimately deluded life, but it depends how you look at it I guess.

 

An atheists perspective might be a bit more brutal, but conversely it brings hope and happiness in other forms.

 

Everyone is entitled to believe what they want, but at the same time it should be ok to raise awareness that it's ok to question those beliefs.

[carl0s]

..the slogan could read: "There's probably no God. You are a brief flickering flame in a vast, unending sea of blackness. There's no point to anything. Go home and weep"

 

Actually that's exactly how I feel sometimes, except for the weeping and blackness part. Maybe taking up religion would make me a happier person then

[mrdsukautos]

Jesus is dead

 

I killed him............

[chilli]

And chilli, i dont think its worth calling xtians deluded since god does not exist, as you would not called a child deluded for beliving in santa claus.

 

Interesting point that

 

Firstly, we are talking about adults here, not children.

 

Secondly, I'm not singling out any particular religion or faith.

 

However, I think you highlight an important and key difference between a child and adult. As a child, it's quite acceptable to use make believe, to believe in an imaginary friend, Santa Claus or even the tooth fairy for example. Parents and society even encourage it as part of the process of learning and playing (undoubtedly very important for children!). For those reasons it's perhaps misplaced to call a child deluded.

 

Part of the process of growing up and becoming an adult is the ability to differentiate the real from the imaginary, the factual from the make believe. Whilst it's still good to dream, as adults we should acquire and master the ability to distinguish the real from make believe, fact from fiction and treat them appropriately in every day life and when forming the (hopefully) responsible decisions we have to make.

 

Thus if an adult continues to believe in say Santa Claus, deluded would become an appropriate term for that continued belief (against evidence and logic).

 

Having said that, I'm not of the opinion that all aspects of religion are totally bad It's in a way a sad indictment on society that we require something potentially make believe to help bring people together in a community. However, there are other alternatives, look at this forum, a community that's based around something real and tangible - well at least i hope that's the case anyway :s