Gordon Brown - Cometh the hour cometh the man...discuss

[Charlotte]

I fail to see *mis-use* of an orange as criminal.

Once again, I think you've let yourself down today with your facts

 

Buggery is a crime I'll have you know.

[Lbm]

Buggery is a crime I'll have you know.

 

 

What- you'll arrest the fruit in question? (pun probably intended)

[marc_p]

Surely just 'Gordon Brown is a tw@t' is really all this could ever be about.

 

 

Soooooo................Gordon Brown is a tw@t

[Snooze]

(b) he's presided over a period of time when there has been lots of bad news and, without being snobby about it, the average voter can't disentangle the effects of world trends and the effects of his leadership

 

This is actually the main reason why democracy is rubbish - 99.9% of the populace simply aren't qualified to vote (note: this includes myself. I don't claim to understand the economy at all, so how the hell can I know if politician A, B or C understands it?)

[DaveK]

Can we get back off topic and continue with the oranges discussion? I wanted to see what happens next.

 

I realise that probably qualifies me as part of the 99.9%........

[carl0s]

The 3 main political parties are so close to centre nowadays, that none of them are going to have radically different policies to any other.

 

So that means are stuck with high crime, poor services, greed, etc because that is what we all want? If you only give someone a limited choice of 'no choice' then they should have every right to say they want something different and a proper choice. I dont have an answer but I believe there are a significant number of people in this country who feel they they do not have a voice speaking for them.

 

You need to learn to use the quote tags properly. You keep copying what people are saying instead of using keeping the

and [/quote ] tags around the bits you want to quote.

[Ian R]

Its all ways the same. Labour get in increase the National Debt. Then the tories come back and put right all of labours cock ups. Education Education Education give me a break should have read

 

Taxation Taxation Taxation !!!

 

Let drain those who make a decent living and give to those who can't be assed. The working class can kiss my ass when the blue flag fly's again at Last

[extendor]

You need to learn to use the quote tags properly. You keep copying what people are saying instead of using keeping the

and [/quote ] tags around the bits you want to quote.

 

Sorry

[carl0s]

I think the highlight of all that jumbled reactionary tosh was this little gem.

 

Picking up on just one point raised.

 

Not everyone is in an apopletic rage about tax. I think taxation here is pretty reasonable. Historically for the UK, it's still pretty low and certainly not as high as in many countries.

 

Personally, I'm happy to pay tax. Not all of my tax goes towards things I'm interested in or particularly want to support. Take the Olympics: it wouldn't bother me if it never happened. I'd rather Britain hosted a gigantic inernational opera festival. Or I could also ask: why should I have to pay taxes to support other people's kids? But to me those are pointless objections. Society is a collection of individuals with different needs and interests. You can't expect taxes only to be spent only on those things you personally want or approve of.

 

Also: what is this absolute obsession with freeloaders that we've imported wholesale from the USA? People go on and on and on about it. I'd much rather live in a society that has a safety net for the genuinely needy, even if it means some wasters get a free meal ticket at my expense.

 

Right, I'm off to shoot some birds stealing MY worms out of MY GARDEN which I PAID FOR.

 

You speak sense as always, but I can't help thinking that there are too many freeloaders. Not imports particularly, but a combination of imports and local white trash.

[carl0s]

Sorry

 

I wasn't having a go, and you seem to have got the hang of it now anyway

[Snooze]

You speak sense as always, but I can't help thinking that there are too many freeloaders. Not imports particularly, but a combination of imports and local white trash.

 

1.7mil claiming unemployment benefit

2.6mil claiming incapacity benefit

 

There just aren't any jobs for them to do, I'm afraid. Even if they did want to work. What should you do with all these people - the only option would be for the government to hire them and pay them salaries instead of giving them benefits. But to do what?

[Bobbeh]

And this is any better!!!!

 

The difference is this is a global issue not caused by us, where that was (made far worse at least).

[DaveK]

1.7mil claiming unemployment benefit

2.6mil claiming incapacity benefit

 

There just aren't any jobs for them to do, I'm afraid. Even if they did want to work. What should you do with all these people - the only option would be for the government to hire them and pay them salaries instead of giving them benefits. But to do what?

 

You're kidding right? Not a single employer - including supermarkets, fast food restaurants etc. - are recruiting?

 

There may not be jobs they think are good enough for them. There are also a percentage of people on both types of benefit who have no itention of working. But to say that there are "no" jobs is not very believable.

[Ian R]

1.7mil claiming unemployment benefit

2.6mil claiming incapacity benefit

 

There just aren't any jobs for them to do, I'm afraid. Even if they did want to work. What should you do with all these people - the only option would be for the government to hire them and pay them salaries instead of giving them benefits. But to do what?

 

 

Bullshit. People who quote this are lazy ba$tards. I always have vacancies at work. I was going to be made redundant I got another job no problem only 2 months ago may I add.

 

People should not be so choosy I would rather clean toilets than be on benefits. RANT OVER

[Soop Dogg]

No

 

it was worse.

 

 

Was it worse though? The debacle over the ERM wasn't all borne out of events within our own shores. Yes, in retrospect it wasn't beneficial to the UK to join the ERM, but the principal of trying to ensure that member states currencies kept within a 6% range of each other wasn't actually a bad idea for trade between member states.

 

However, with the demise of the Berlin Wall in 1989, and the subsequent reunification of Germany, the Germans were having a bit of economic turmoil themselves and found it necessary to keep increasing their interest rates to control inflation. This had the effect of increasing the value of their currency, and a number of ERM currencies were trading at or very close to the lower limit of the 6% range that they were meant to stay within.

 

Also, the fact that at that time many UK exports were priced in $US - which was falling like a stone then - meant that the £ was in danger of falling below this agreed limit.

 

Hence why it was necessary for UK interest rates to be raised to 12% and then 15% (albeit for a short period of time). This was after the government had tried to buy up as much sterling as they could to stop the mass sell off of the £ on the currency markets which was devaluing the £ even faster.

 

Not exactly all within the control of, or indeed due to the actions of our own government. The Italian Lira also fell to outside the base level of it's ERM agreement. I seem to remember Spain's currency doing the same or coming very close to the limit.

 

What I do notice now, however is the amount of debt that the country is falling into - and by that I'm talking about national debt. After all of these bailouts and the nationalisation of Northern Rock etc, the UK debt will be approaching 50% of GDP. As a nation, we've got no reserve funds put away for an eventuality such as this. (Such as gold, as most of it got sold off by our current government when the price was low - DOH!) So the government is going to borrow most of it.

 

The last time national debt was this high was in the mid 1970's when Denis Healy was chancellor.

 

Now....wasn't he a Labour chancellor.....??

[DaveK]

Bull$#@!. People who quote this are lazy ba$tards. I always have vacancies at work. I was going to be made redundant I got another job no problem only 2 months ago may I add.

 

People should not be so choosy I would rather clean toilets than be on benefits. RANT OVER

 

Ditto.

[Bobbeh]

Society is a collection of individuals with different needs and interests. You can't expect taxes only to be spent only on those things you personally want or approve of..

 

Sadly that is what a lot of people think... me me me.

 

Funny to see the reaction when the boot is on the other foot tho..

 

No wonder the economy is in such a mess, must have a lot of bums and wasters in this country

[Snooze]

Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying that there aren't any jobs around. I'm saying that there aren't any jobs that most of these people are qualified to do.

 

I was going to be made redundant I got another job no problem only 2 months ago may I add.

 

You're a smart guy with a decent education. Most of this 4million ARE complete numpties and I don't think you'll find that many toilet-cleaning jobs going!

 

There's also a geographic problem - a lot of them are in areas where there aren't any jobs any more - people whos whole families live in ex-mining villages in the deep backwaters. Maybe we should force them all to pack up and move down to Surrey (where they can't afford to buy the overpriced houses) so they can wipe our arses for us.......

[bolarbag]

Bull$#@!. People who quote this are lazy ba$tards. I always have vacancies at work. I was going to be made redundant I got another job no problem only 2 months ago may I add.

 

People should not be so choosy I would rather clean toilets than be on benefits. RANT OVER

 

Ditto.

 

Ditto x2

 

I know efing loads of folk that dont want to work, its suprisingly easy to get by on a life of benefits! It does make me wonder sometimes who has the better lifestyle, I could think of plenty of things to do in place of the 50 hours I currently work a week! Just so I can afford nice clothes - to wear to work and the petrol money to get here and the car insurance to pay for that car to get me to work and money for the food I buy from the rip off sandwich bar so I can eat - at work

 

Depending on your income, but your not fantastically better off if you have a mortgage, car and you earn sub 30K, all of which you could easily get due to the lax methods of control of the benefits system I and we fund!

[chilli]

lot of (futile) bickering on here about conservative this and labour that. In this instance it's pretty irrelevant, but I guess it's easy to bundle all our nation (and to a large extent the worlds) problems into the same pot, people seem to do that because it's easier than differentiating the distinct problems and their possible causes.

 

Since policies are so similar in the leading parties in a democracy, almost by definition - I've often had the thought (and I still believe some truth in it) that it's the individuals that are more important than the official party policy. That's true in other areas, for example at work people like to push that it's the company policies etc that make the company, if you look at any successful company, you usually find one or two exceptional people who make all the difference.

[bolarbag]

 

Since policies are so similar in the leading parties in a democracy, almost by definition - I've often had the thought (and I still believe some truth in it) that it's the individuals that are more important than the official party policy. That's true in other areas, for example at work people like to push that it's the company policies etc that make the company, if you look at any successful company, you usually find one or two exceptional people who make all the difference.

 

 

Fair point, Tom Green and the likes certainly make a difference upon instatement of top positions

 

Trouble with that is what if we dont have any candidates good enough?

[Tannhauser]

Since policies are so similar in the leading parties in a democracy, almost by definition - I've often had the thought (and I still believe some truth in it) that it's the individuals that are more important than the official party policy. That's true in other areas, for example at work people like to push that it's the company policies etc that make the company, if you look at any successful company, you usually find one or two exceptional people who make all the difference.

 

Interesting. That's certainly been the case in the US in the last decade, where relatively few neocons e.g. Paul Wolfowitz, Dick Cheney, Richard Perle, Donald Rumsfeld, maybe Condoleeza Rice (though I'm not sure she counts) have had a colossal effect on US foreign policy, and by extension, world politics.

[Lbm]

Was it worse though? The debacle over the ERM wasn't all borne out of events within our own shores. Yes, in retrospect it wasn't beneficial to the UK to join the ERM, but the principal of trying to ensure that member states currencies kept within a 6% range of each other wasn't actually a bad idea for trade between member states.

 

However, with the demise of the Berlin Wall in 1989, and the subsequent reunification of Germany, the Germans were having a bit of economic turmoil themselves and found it necessary to keep increasing their interest rates to control inflation. This had the effect of increasing the value of their currency, and a number of ERM currencies were trading at or very close to the lower limit of the 6% range that they were meant to stay within.

 

Also, the fact that at that time many UK exports were priced in $US - which was falling like a stone then - meant that the £ was in danger of falling below this agreed limit.

 

Hence why it was necessary for UK interest rates to be raised to 12% and then 15% (albeit for a short period of time). This was after the government had tried to buy up as much sterling as they could to stop the mass sell off of the £ on the currency markets which was devaluing the £ even faster.

 

Not exactly all within the control of, or indeed due to the actions of our own government. The Italian Lira also fell to outside the base level of it's ERM agreement. I seem to remember Spain's currency doing the same or coming very close to the limit.

 

What I do notice now, however is the amount of debt that the country is falling into - and by that I'm talking about national debt. After all of these bailouts and the nationalisation of Northern Rock etc, the UK debt will be approaching 50% of GDP. As a nation, we've got no reserve funds put away for an eventuality such as this. (Such as gold, as most of it got sold off by our current government when the price was low - DOH!) So the government is going to borrow most of it.

 

The last time national debt was this high was in the mid 1970's when Denis Healy was chancellor.

 

Now....wasn't he a Labour chancellor.....??

 

I particularly remember the feel/despair of mass unemployment although I was in my early teens at the beginning of the 80s.

 

Below makes for quite interesting reading: the old "For & Against Thatcher debate

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/witness/may/4/newsid_3452000/3452895.stm

[extendor]

What I do notice now, however is the amount of debt that the country is falling into - and by that I'm talking about national debt. After all of these bailouts and the nationalisation of Northern Rock etc, the UK debt will be approaching 50% of GDP. As a nation, we've got no reserve funds put away for an eventuality such as this. (Such as gold, as most of it got sold off by our current government when the price was low - DOH!) So the government is going to borrow most of it.

 

 

UK Plc circles the drain?

[Ian C]

Actually with the amount of civil liberties withdrawn/erased by this government, the sooner they are ousted and replaced with, well crikey anyone frankly, the better.

 

Never mind the bungling of the cash reserves and national debt and the credit crunch - look at "anti-terror" laws that are now regularly misused for pretty much anything - from pinching cash off icelanding banks to kicking pensioners out of labour conferences for asking questions the politician didn't want to hear. We are supposed to be and constantly urged to be in constant fear, or terror, of attacks - doesn't that mean the 'terror'ists have, well, won? The arrest without proof, the detention without trial, the trial without jury... Constant pressure to up the time and widen the parameters for justifying this. The focus on innocents and petty crimes to tick boxes and quell the populace, while ignoring the big bad stuff as having people afraid to go out is apparently a good thing. Transport policies that are mostly freedom taxes to get you out of your car, all designed to get you on government controlled transport to and from specific places at specific times. DNA databases that you end up on even if innocent, ID cards, biometric passports, fingerprinting kids at school "for their own safety" (How so?! More like indoctrinating them into thinking all this is 'normal'), sweeping civvie powers for councils, parking attendants - on the spot fines, anti-terror spying powers used to watch and fine dog owners for not clearing up after the canine, all this is guilty before proven innocent and £120 for leaving your bin lid ajar thanks...

 

As far as I'm concerned, this round of Labour govt is the biggest threat to the average persons freedom since A. Hitler esquire. They can fuck off and die, preferably by orange.

 

-Ian