extendor Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 Ian C for next PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie_b Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 ...As far as I'm concerned, this round of Labour govt is the biggest threat to the average persons freedom since A. Hitler esquire. They can $#@! off and die, preferably by orange. -Ian For legal reasons, I'd like to point out that other fruit are also available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie_b Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 This is actually the main reason why democracy is rubbish - 99.9% of the populace simply aren't qualified to vote (note: this includes myself. I don't claim to understand the economy at all, so how the hell can I know if politician A, B or C understands it?) Aha, someone who agrees with my pessimistic views on the ability of the British public to make rational choices. The prospect of a referendum really scares me. People will vote for the side that tells the most convincing scare story, no matter how likely/unlikely/made-up that scare story is. Most people these days seem to care less about understanding what's around them (this is difficult, I admit), and more about what Posh Spice was wearing last night, or who's been evicted from Big Bruvver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonball Posted October 16, 2008 Author Share Posted October 16, 2008 You want government - and yet complain when they govern...? You want government - and yet complain when they dont...? Why do you complain...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carl0s Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 Actually with the amount of civil liberties withdrawn/erased by this government, the sooner they are ousted and replaced with, well crikey anyone frankly, the better. Never mind the bungling of the cash reserves and national debt and the credit crunch - look at "anti-terror" laws that are now regularly misused for pretty much anything - from pinching cash off icelanding banks to kicking pensioners out of labour conferences for asking questions the politician didn't want to hear. We are supposed to be and constantly urged to be in constant fear, or terror, of attacks - doesn't that mean the 'terror'ists have, well, won? The arrest without proof, the detention without trial, the trial without jury... Constant pressure to up the time and widen the parameters for justifying this. The focus on innocents and petty crimes to tick boxes and quell the populace, while ignoring the big bad stuff as having people afraid to go out is apparently a good thing. Transport policies that are mostly freedom taxes to get you out of your car, all designed to get you on government controlled transport to and from specific places at specific times. DNA databases that you end up on even if innocent, ID cards, biometric passports, fingerprinting kids at school "for their own safety" (How so?! More like indoctrinating them into thinking all this is 'normal'), sweeping civvie powers for councils, parking attendants - on the spot fines, anti-terror spying powers used to watch and fine dog owners for not clearing up after the canine, all this is guilty before proven innocent and £120 for leaving your bin lid ajar thanks... As far as I'm concerned, this round of Labour govt is the biggest threat to the average persons freedom since A. Hitler esquire. They can $#@! off and die, preferably by orange. -Ian That's a strong argument, and all those things upset me, so I am back in a Conservative position now. See how easily people can be influenced? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie_b Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 You want government - and yet complain when they govern...? You want government - and yet complain when they dont...? Why do you complain...? Being in government can be a thankless task, but that's not a reason to hold back when they don't do what I want, or when they do nothing. Politicians will get flak for whatever decision they make. You can't please everyone with a given decision. In my job, my boss complains to me when I make a mistake (in his eyes). My boss also complains when I do nothing. Why should politicians be any different? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ark Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 Buggery is a crime I'll have you know. It was actually legalised in 1994, so you're good to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carl0s Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 I particularly remember the feel/despair of mass unemployment although I was in my early teens at the beginning of the 80s. Below makes for quite interesting reading: the old "For & Against Thatcher debate http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/witness/may/4/newsid_3452000/3452895.stm That does make interesting reading, because I had no knowledge of anything at that time, although I was born in 1981. I lived in a Council house and was accepted for scholarship at a private grammar school, so not a particularly bad memory. I read all of the comments last night on that bbc.co.uk link you gave, and it helps me understand how things might have been. What I saw from those comments was a country stuck in old fashioned industry, with lots of unskilled workers whose jobs were being heavily subsidised by the government, and the country being held to ransom by trade union strikes. Power cuts due to strikes. It sounds like a dark time. I got the impression of lots of poor unskilled workers who knew nothing except their old job finding themselves screwed and not knowing what the hell to do as the country was being pushed towards a modern society rather than a coal miner's country. The kind of picture I got was like something from an old book. I had visions of what I saw when reading the book A Kestrel for a Knave whist at school. So, if that's how it was, then I can only decide that Thatcher did something awesome. I feel we are in a modern cutting edge society now, a stark contrast to what I have envisioned from the negative Thatcher comments on that bbc.co.uk page. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie_b Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 Power cuts due to strikes. It sounds like a dark time. True. I too think the country was held to ransom by the unions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 I too think the country was held to ransom by the unions. ..and now as workers we have no rights Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extendor Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 ..and now as workers we have no rights Try being an employer then and see how few rights your employees have. I would swap any day from being the boss to a plain old employee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soop Dogg Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 ..and now as workers we have no rights You should see the state of things in the US!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carl0s Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 ..and now as workers we have no rights Are you having a laugh?! You can go and have a baby and still take pay, you can't be sacked if you are thick and shit at your job, you can get compensation for a job you never got, because your feelings are hurt. You really must be having a laugh if you think workers have no rights. As a single-man small business, I hope I never have to employ anybody. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extendor Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 Are you having a laugh?! You can go and have a baby and still take pay, you can't be sacked if you are thick and $#@! at your job, you can get compensation for a job you never got, because your feelings are hurt. You really must be having a laugh if you think workers have no rights. As a single-man small business, I hope I never have to employ anybody. My situation is a small business just got out of the spare bedroom and into office space twelve months ago. I had to take on staff as we were growing. Taking on staff has actually cost more time effort and trouble that I could ever imagine. May I also add this little snippet of info. I placed a job add with Job centre for a permanent part time clerical role, above miniumum pay, training to be given etc etc hours to suit. Ideal you would have thought for a person with care responsibilities or getting back into work. The Job Centre were pretty good and sent a load of CV's. I sifted, made appointments with three, interviewed them and offered the position to one. She went away then emailed me to say she would not take the offer because she would be worse off after her benefits were reduced by the amount I would be paying. In other words she did not want the work and would rather stay at home. She only attended the interview because she had to show she was still actively seeking work. I rang the job centre and they said they could do nothing about it. Now we are doing well and our plans put in place twelve months ago are paying dividends. I need to think about taking on a permanent project administrator but this time we will get someone who is already in work or who has just lost a job. Long term unemployed are not on our list! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carl0s Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 My situation is a small business just got out of the spare bedroom and into office space twelve months ago. I had to take on staff as we were growing. Taking on staff has actually cost more time effort and trouble that I could ever imagine. May I also add this little snippet of info. I placed a job add with Job centre for a permanent part time clerical role, above miniumum pay, training to be given etc etc hours to suit. Ideal you would have thought for a person with care responsibilities or getting back into work. The Job Centre were pretty good and sent a load of CV's. I sifted, made appointments with three, interviewed them and offered the position to one. She went away then emailed me to say she would not take the offer because she would be worse off after her benefits were reduced by the amount I would be paying. In other words she did not want the work and would rather stay at home. She only attended the interview because she had to show she was still actively seeking work. I rang the job centre and they said they could do nothing about it. Now we are doing well and our plans put in place twelve months ago are paying dividends. I need to think about taking on a permanent project administrator but this time we will get someone who is already in work or who has just lost a job. Long term unemployed are not on our list! My missus' sister went to the job centre and they advised her that "You are better off going to college and working a few hours a week because then the government will pay you loads". So she did. I think they pay her mortgage too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolarbag Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 I placed a job add with Job centre for a permanent part time clerical role, above miniumum pay, training to be given etc etc hours to suit. Ideal you would have thought for a person with care responsibilities or getting back into work. The Job Centre were pretty good and sent a load of CV's. I sifted, made appointments with three, interviewed them and offered the position to one. She went away then emailed me to say she would not take the offer because she would be worse off after her benefits were reduced by the amount I would be paying. In other words she did not want the work and would rather stay at home. She only attended the interview because she had to show she was still actively seeking work. I rang the job centre and they said they could do nothing about it. Thats the major problem, but its also not as clear cut as WE see it You could look at the above scenario from the perspective that if she came to work for you she COULD open up endless opportunities, with the goal of effictively looking after herself, on no benefits at all when, probably in years to come her salary increases She has taken the other perspective - sit in the house, probably slightly better off as she wouldnt be shelling out on transport and food, have no authoritive instructions for her day, go and get things done when they need done instead of waiting until the weekend e.t.c As she is given the options anyway - who is wrong? The issue wouldnt be an issue if they werent handed out so many $%*^£%" benefits in the first place! Its like most young adults these days including myself up until a time, given the option of renting or staying with parents for free is a no brainer, take that latter option away and you adapt your finances to enable yourself to rent e.t.c If the government has no timescales in place for people to go find work then for most its just another 'no brainer'!! This goes right through the ranges of society including the disabled and the rest, just because your in a wheel chair doesnt mean you can't sit on a phone for a few hours a day, personally I'd rather they delt with my queries than most of the 'Steves' I speak to from Timbucktoo!(Rant over) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveK Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 My situation is a small business just got out of the spare bedroom and into office space twelve months ago. I had to take on staff as we were growing. Taking on staff has actually cost more time effort and trouble that I could ever imagine. May I also add this little snippet of info. I placed a job add with Job centre for a permanent part time clerical role, above miniumum pay, training to be given etc etc hours to suit. Ideal you would have thought for a person with care responsibilities or getting back into work. The Job Centre were pretty good and sent a load of CV's. I sifted, made appointments with three, interviewed them and offered the position to one. She went away then emailed me to say she would not take the offer because she would be worse off after her benefits were reduced by the amount I would be paying. In other words she did not want the work and would rather stay at home. She only attended the interview because she had to show she was still actively seeking work. I rang the job centre and they said they could do nothing about it. Now we are doing well and our plans put in place twelve months ago are paying dividends. I need to think about taking on a permanent project administrator but this time we will get someone who is already in work or who has just lost a job. Long term unemployed are not on our list! This is one thing that really does annoy me. It should not be possible for people to want to be out of work. Their benefits should allow them to survive and absolutely nothing more. They should not be able to afford sky tv, they should not be able to afford to smoke, they should not be able to afford PS3s. Housing benefit? Stick a family of 5 in a bedsit and pay their rent - and see how quickly they want to stay living on benefit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benkei Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 There are countless jobs out there, if you want one. My girlfriend found a job within 2 weeks, she didn't like it so went for another, now she's in training for that job and will soon be earning! But if you don't want to work then you dont have to, you can live off benefits. It's stupid! A few girls who my girlfriend went to college with even told her that they didn't want to work, they were going to get pregnant, have a kid and live for free off the state! And that's currently what they are doing! Why should we pay for lazy kids to live for free when we work hard all day and struggle to afford the things we want?! Why should illegal immigrants come into this country and be handed everything on a plate, when again, we have to work and pay our way?! I wonder how long this can go on for until this country just collapses completely?! I can imagine the entire population leaving work to live off benefits... Seems to be easier, you get everyday to yourself, don't have to worry about the traffic to and from work everyday, and you can get the same money depending on how many lies you tell! Face it, there are so many benefit frauds out there that put an even bigger strain on society than we are comfortable with! Road tax is constantly going up, yet the roads we drive on keep getting worse and worse! Now road tax is dependant on the emmisions, which have f00k all to do with global warming, yet the population is too blind and stupid to think for themselves and realise it's all a scam to scare us out of our money! What was once the greatest country in the world is now a joke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extendor Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 You could look at the above scenario from the perspective that if she came to work for you she COULD open up endless opportunities, with the goal of effictively looking after herself, on no benefits at all when, probably in years to come her salary increases The lady who we eventually found and now does that job is brilliant. I like to think we did open a few extra doors for her. She has been trained on new software, has developed a lovely telephone manner and I would have no hesitation in giving her a great reference. I notice that she has benefitted in some very subtle ways as well. I think everyone around her would say she has a lot more confidense. Shame the other person missed out on these 'benefits'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlotte Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 This is one thing that really does annoy me. It should not be possible for people to want to be out of work. Their benefits should allow them to survive and absolutely nothing more. They should not be able to afford sky tv, they should not be able to afford to smoke, they should not be able to afford PS3s. Housing benefit? Stick a family of 5 in a bedsit and pay their rent - and see how quickly they want to stay living on benefit. Part of their benefits should include food too. If they are irresponsible enough to have kids they should be forced to feed them with vouchers that make up part of their allowance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewOW Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 This is one thing that really does annoy me. It should not be possible for people to want to be out of work. Their benefits should allow them to survive and absolutely nothing more. They should not be able to afford sky tv, they should not be able to afford to smoke, they should not be able to afford PS3s. Housing benefit? Stick a family of 5 in a bedsit and pay their rent - and see how quickly they want to stay living on benefit. Burn them. Burn them all !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveK Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 Burn them. Burn them all !! Actually, that is my favoured option but thought it was a bit harsh. You could use them to provide heating for the elderly that way though - kill two birds with one stone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tannhauser Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 Actually with the amount of civil liberties withdrawn/erased by this government, the sooner they are ousted and replaced with, well crikey anyone frankly, the better. Never mind the bungling of the cash reserves and national debt and the credit crunch - look at "anti-terror" laws that are now regularly misused for pretty much anything - from pinching cash off icelanding banks to kicking pensioners out of labour conferences for asking questions the politician didn't want to hear. We are supposed to be and constantly urged to be in constant fear, or terror, of attacks - doesn't that mean the 'terror'ists have, well, won? The arrest without proof, the detention without trial, the trial without jury... Constant pressure to up the time and widen the parameters for justifying this. The focus on innocents and petty crimes to tick boxes and quell the populace, while ignoring the big bad stuff as having people afraid to go out is apparently a good thing. Transport policies that are mostly freedom taxes to get you out of your car, all designed to get you on government controlled transport to and from specific places at specific times. DNA databases that you end up on even if innocent, ID cards, biometric passports, fingerprinting kids at school "for their own safety" (How so?! More like indoctrinating them into thinking all this is 'normal'), sweeping civvie powers for councils, parking attendants - on the spot fines, anti-terror spying powers used to watch and fine dog owners for not clearing up after the canine, all this is guilty before proven innocent and £120 for leaving your bin lid ajar thanks... As far as I'm concerned, this round of Labour govt is the biggest threat to the average persons freedom since A. Hitler esquire. They can fuck off and die, preferably by orange. -Ian I didn't realise you had a political bone in your body That's a very interesting point about h*man r*ghts, sorry, civil liberties. Traditionally, keeping the peasants in line by instilling a sense of fear and then monitoring their every move under the guise of 'keeping them safe' would be regarded as a right wing practice. After all, the conservatives are the party that have always had the raison d'etre of preserving existing social structures and guarding the wealth of the elite. We see the same connection in the USA, where the CIA, FBI, customs etc are less fussy about invasion of privacy and the rights of the individual and the whole country seems to have enjoyed 50 years of continual paranoia about everything from communism to Johnny Foreigner. It goes well with the right wing ethos there. So it's quite weird to find a labour government that has -as you rightly say - introduced draconian and liberty-eroding laws. It doesn't fit with traditional labour values and is yet another example of how much Labour have changed in the last ten-fifteen years. That said, if they hold true to form, there's no reason why conservatives would reverse these trends. I don't know if their making noises about it, but they have to try to draw distinctions with labour somehow. Just don't bank on it lasting. Incidentally, I think detention without trial and being forced to clear your own dog's shit up is probably conflating two separate things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonball Posted October 16, 2008 Author Share Posted October 16, 2008 Part of their benefits should include food too. If they are irresponsible enough to have kids they should be forced to feed them with vouchers that make up part of their allowance. They do that in the states I think... damn fine idea...nice one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonball Posted October 16, 2008 Author Share Posted October 16, 2008 OK - but still the fundamental question remains... Imagine Cameron trying to manage his way out of this crisis? No way jose... I am not a great Brown fan - damn fine manager IMHO - leave him in control of the logistics but not the charge (if you know what I mean) However - credit (with just a little 'crunch'?)where due I think he has done well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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