Gary Glitter...

[JustGav]

GWhat about the footballers who "spit roasted" the girl in her hotel room, are they going to be hounded as sex offenders for the rest of their life

 

I do believe the above mentioned girl was an adult and not an 11yr old child?

 

. Even I committed a crime, shoplifting when I was a teenager, am I going to be followed the rest of my days because I "may" shoplift.

Abuse a kid, shoplifting? slightly different I reckon don't you?

 

Gary Glitter is in the media spotlight here, and I very much doubt he will have the opportunity to reoffended, but what about those lurking in the shadows, they are the ones we should be really worried about!!

 

GG will re-offend and he has done in the past, however you do make a very valid point about the ones that don't get found.

 

Here is an example for you...

 

We had a questionable person in the neighbourhood a while back, he WAS on the register and he WAS hanging around the kids, filming them playing and every now and then he would grab the kid's bikes and scare them (only the girls I will add)... WHAT would you do in the situation?

 

Rightly or wrongly, I'd rather be wrong about an adult than risk one of my kids being injured, and for this I will NEVER apologise.

[Soop Dogg]

Where did you get that gem of information? I was listening to a similar debate on radio two the other week - one guest was someone in exactly that position: he was worried by his urges, sought help from his doctor, and wound up on the sex-offenders register, without having done anything wrong.

 

Aah - some bloke on a radio debate said it, so yeah - I guess it must be true.

 

I've highlighted the difference from the type of person who I was referring to and the type you described. I'm talking about someone who has already committed offences but has not yet been caught. So the person on the radio wasn't really "someone in exactly that position" as you deemed them to be.

 

That 'gem of information' came from a police officer who heads a family protection unit. She was referencing material obtained from studies in the legal and medical professions approved by the home office as part of her lecture material.

 

Nice of you to just pick up on perhaps the most minor point that I brought up and ignore everything else I was trying to say. I stand by what I said - the main point being that I think we should detain people who have already proven themselves to be a danger to others - in particular children and vulnerable members of society - until they can demonstrate themselves to be otherwise.

 

If your opinion is that we should let these people out because they have 'repaid their debt' to society, then fair enough - you're entitled to that opinion too. But isn't that what we do now? Don't we have cases of rapists and other sexual offenders re-offending (and in the worst cases killing new victims) every year? That suggests to me that the current system is flawed and until it something happens to improve the situation, we need to put the rights of innocent people before the rights of these sick individuals by detaining them until they are no longer pose such a danger.

 

All IMHO, of course.

[Max Headroom]

I do believe the above mentioned girl was an adult and not an 11yr old child?

 

 

Abuse a kid, shoplifting? slightly different I reckon don't you?

 

 

 

GG will re-offend and he has done in the past, however you do make a very valid point about the ones that don't get found.

 

Here is an example for you...

 

We had a questionable person in the neighbourhood a while back, he WAS on the register and he WAS hanging around the kids, filming them playing and every now and then he would grab the kid's bikes and scare them (only the girls I will add)... WHAT would you do in the situation?

 

Rightly or wrongly, I'd rather be wrong about an adult than risk one of my kids being injured, and for this I will NEVER apologise.

 

I am not talking semantics here. The woman who was "spit roasted" and an 11 year old girl both have the same basic rights. It has nothing to do with age but the act itself! If an 18 year old has sex with a 15 year old, it is against the law, are you going to beat the 18 year old up? He's a paedophile, isn't he? he has had sex with an underage girl.

 

Abusing a child and shoplifting are different, but both are against the law. You missed my point, where do you stop keeping tags on people?

 

The example you cite, are you expecting an answer from me?!! Do you turn vigilante and beat the crap out of him because he MIGHT abuse one of the children? Who is the better person then!! There was an article in the paper a few months back where in America, hundreds of paedophiles were sent to one particular area to live, they had thir own little community with all the therapists to help them. The vast majority of them live completely "normal" lives. Any offenders are carted off back to jail.

 

GG is a menace, BUT, because the "red tops" have taken it upon themselves to demonise him, everyone is up in arms crying "he's a paedophile, burn the paedophile!!". It wasnt that long ago the self same papers were saying "GG isnt he just great".

 

Me personally, I work with children and I get to see the s**t that these guys have had to deal with. Sexual abuse, physical abuse, emotional abuse, neglect are all things the teenagers I work with have suffered and I have to deal with the s**t every day. Any abuse f**ks their minds up and we try to make them better, but it is normally too late. What do you say to a 16 year old girl who walks the streets, abused by her father, prostituting herself because she thinks thats what love is? What do you say to the 17 year old boy who abuses his sister, because his grandfather abused his mother, is that right!!

 

We as a society are too slow to point the finger and say hang on, this isn't right. If the Establishment cannot solve the problem, then the Establishment needs changing, it should not be up to ordinary citizens to be the keepers of the law

 

I will take you up on one point, you see a man playing with the children in the park and he picks a girl up and she starts crying. Do you go over and do him some harm, no questions asked. It turns out the man is the girl's grandfather and she is crying because he has told her it is time to go home and she doesn't want to leave the park. You wouldn't apologise there would you!!

[Charlotte]

I agree with the majority of what you say Max. I think people can't see past the fact that these are ill people - it's just they are ill in the most demonic way, preying on innocent kids.

 

I should imagine it probably the hardest of all things to admit you had a problem and you liked to look at children, who the hell could you tell - how could you get help?

 

I'm not for one second advocating paedophiles or saying they have any rights. Just that maybe sometimes they should be treated like anyone else with a sex addiction - get help, go to therapy, maybe they'll change, maybe the cause just needs to be broken down.

 

It's certainly a vicious circle without the help, the end result is always tragic. However what help can be sought - who wants to actually give these people the time of day.

[JustGav]

Please don't get me wrong, this is an emotive subject obviously and I'm not going to say you are wrong with your opinion, they are after all yours.

 

I am not talking semantics here. The woman who was "spit roasted" and an 11 year old girl both have the same basic rights. It has nothing to do with age but the act itself! If an 18 year old has sex with a 15 year old, it is against the law, are you going to beat the 18 year old up? He's a paedophile, isn't he? he has had sex with an underage girl.

My logic with that is, the girl wasn't a minor and she WILLING went up to the hotel room, what occured was still wrong however she would be (should have been perhaps) more aware of what was occuring and attempted to stop it (If she couldn't stop it, then it would be a completely different crime IMHO), however we were talking about 10/11yr old children who don't have the much exposure to the world and can't always judge what is right and wrong.

 

Abusing a child and shoplifting are different, but both are against the law. You missed my point, where do you stop keeping tags on people?

Agreed, there is that fine line between freedom and police state.

 

The example you cite, are you expecting an answer from me?!!

To be honest, I wasn't attempting to pick an argument I was hoping for a decent debate and an alternative POV

 

Do you turn vigilante and beat the crap out of him because he MIGHT abuse one of the children? Who is the better person then!!

As I said, rightly or wrongly if I felt my kids were in danger then I'd have to take some action.

 

There was an article in the paper a few months back where in America, hundreds of paedophiles were sent to one particular area to live, they had thir own little community with all the therapists to help them. The vast majority of them live completely "normal" lives. Any offenders are carted off back to jail.

 

GG is a menace, BUT, because the "red tops" have taken it upon themselves to demonise him, everyone is up in arms crying "he's a paedophile, burn the paedophile!!". It wasnt that long ago the self same papers were saying "GG isnt he just great".

In my sheltered (read sanctioned due to where I grew up) childhood, we didn't have any exposure to GG as the superstar rock DJ person, so the only exposure I've seen is since the PCworld incident and since then it hasn't EXACTLY been rosey.

 

Nov 97 - Arrested for child porn on laptop

Nov 99 - Jailed for 4 months for 4000 child porn images

Dec 02 - Kicked out of cambodia for sex crimes allegations

Nov 05 - Arrested for child molestation

Dec 05 - Charged for rape of minors, bribed his way out of death penality.

Mar 06 - Convicted of commiting obscene acts with children.

 

Lovely record isn't it...

 

Me personally, I work with children and I get to see the s**t that these guys have had to deal with. Sexual abuse, physical abuse, emotional abuse, neglect are all things the teenagers I work with have suffered and I have to deal with the s**t every day. Any abuse f**ks their minds up and we try to make them better, but it is normally too late. What do you say to a 16 year old girl who walks the streets, abused by her father, prostituting herself because she thinks thats what love is? What do you say to the 17 year old boy who abuses his sister, because his grandfather abused his mother, is that right!!

 

We as a society are too slow to point the finger and say hang on, this isn't right. If the Establishment cannot solve the problem, then the Establishment needs changing, it should not be up to ordinary citizens to be the keepers of the law

 

But what if the establishment isn't protecting the house and home, would you be able to just stand by and say 'Well, they are doing everything they can', while something occurs? I'm not trying to start an argument per say, but just explaining my POV. When you have the police saying to you 'Well, we can't do anything till he ACTUAL commits the crime a 2nd time'... how would you react? (And those are the actual words the police have said to me), and I'm not having a go at the policeman who came round as his hands were bound by the law.

 

I will take you up on one point, you see a man playing with the children in the park and he picks a girl up and she starts crying. Do you go over and do him some harm, no questions asked. It turns out the man is the girl's grandfather and she is crying because he has told her it is time to go home and she doesn't want to leave the park. You wouldn't apologise there would you!!

Now that is a very interesting and valid point and this one that I don't know how to answer being honest. I don't recall saying anything other than 'appropriate action' though (admittedly I've kept that ambitious for that reason). It is a situation I wouldn't want to be in. Tough one on that.

 

Please understand, none of this is directed at you, but rather just an adult conversation and isn't a personal thing

[ivan]

GGs "leanings" were known way back by those around him. Why didn't they speak out then?

I suspect it was because for them he was the "goose that laid the golden egg".

 

I read a comment from one young lady who, when she mentioned that she really fancied him, was told by one of the record engineers "Don't bother, you're way too old for him." She was 19 at the time.

And what about his girlfriend? She's just fessed up that GG used to make her pretend to be 14!

 

He was a star back then and nobody wanted to sour the milk.

 

Unfortunately, the arrogant sod has still got the outlook that he's a star and with £5 million allegedly tucked away from selling his back catalogue before he became infamous he can still afford to lord it up. He knew his royalty income was about to dry up and offloaded it quick.

 

 

Damn right he needs to be confined to UK.

Remember when he was interviewed after commiting the offence in Vietnam?

He said that he didn't think he'd done anything wrong as he didn't realise that having sex with an 11 year old was illegal there. As soon as he finds somewhere where it isn't illegal or he thinks he won't be caught, he'll be off like a shot.

 

And now he's demanding police protection in case "some nutter with a knife" has a go.

I think he's in more danger from "some concerned parent with a knife" rather than some nutter.

 

As for beating him up. There's no way I would condone it, or beating up any other paedo, but I certainly DO think people should show their concern if they see anything untoward going on with children. Perhaps if people took a more active stance then this sort of behaviour could be stamped out.

 

Edit: However, I would shed no tears if someone else did do him in or if he committed suicide.

[jacko]

Upon his return to the UK, Gary Glitter was beaten up and thown into the sea. Unfortunatey he didnt die and was found straddling a buoy......

 

On a serious note, he has "served his time" and the only thing that can be done is to keep an eye on him to make sure he doesnt have a chance to reoffend. People can change, so let's just pray to god he does

[extendor]

we need to put the rights of innocent people before the rights of these sick individuals by detaining them until they are no longer pose such a danger.QUOTE]

 

Detention is probably the only viable method. There will always be the risk of the law making an error. Consider someone wrongly accused who ends up being hanged or castrated or whatever. Those permanent solutions cannot be undone and throw up a whole load of 'what ifs'

 

The thing that really scares me about all this is that people need to keep calm. One example already quoted talks about a child throwing a tantrum in the park. I have also seen pre teens shouting and calling an old bloke a paedo because he told them to stop smashing up a flower bed. Can you imagine where all this would lead to.

[Soop Dogg]

Detention is probably the only viable method. There will always be the risk of the law making an error. Consider someone wrongly accused who ends up being hanged or castrated or whatever. Those permanent solutions cannot be undone and throw up a whole load of 'what ifs'

 

The thing that really scares me about all this is that people need to keep calm. One example already quoted talks about a child throwing a tantrum in the park. I have also seen pre teens shouting and calling an old bloke a paedo because he told them to stop smashing up a flower bed. Can you imagine where all this would lead to.

 

I wouldn't dream of suggesting anything other than detention. However, I also think that during the time when a person is detained, we need to look at what we do with them in prison/secure units etc.

 

Just detaining them doesn't do anyone any good - there needs to be an effective program of therapy/help to rehabilitate people of this nature before they can be released.

[Chewie]

I reckon they should get all these paedo kiddie fiddlers and put them into a special law enforcement unit to combat juvenile crime. [sHOCK][/sHOCK] The juvenile crime rate would drop faster than the UK gross domestic product. Gary Glitters gang is definitely one gang they won't want to be in. Then maybe one morning I wouldn't have to nail up my front fence panels.[GRIN][/GRIN]

[extendor]

Just detaining them doesn't do anyone any good - there needs to be an effective program of therapy/help to rehabilitate people of this nature before they can be released.

 

Agreed, but until we get an effective programme what other reasonable choices are there. Detention protects everyone as far as I can see.

 

Jacko - you wrote "People can change, so let's just pray to god he does". Who would give him the chance to prove it? I would not be surprised if there was not a single parent in this country who would give him a chance in a million years.

[ivan]

There was an article in the paper a few months back where in America, hundreds of paedophiles were sent to one particular area to live, they had thir own little community with all the therapists to help them. The vast majority of them live completely "normal" lives. Any offenders are carted off back to jail.

Perhaps we could do the same here. Portland or the IoW spring to mind - they've even got their own jails all ready for the reoffenders.

[Gaz6002]

Perhaps we could do the same here. Portland or the IoW spring to mind - they've even got their own jails all ready for the reoffenders.

 

Wales. I like the IOW.

[Terminator]

Some time ago I was in position where I had had to help and support familes and victims of men like GG. Victims whoes lives were ruined by these men because they were made to feel guilty for and complicit in the relationship that some times lasted for years.

 

 

In one sad case a young girl was having a very difficult time at school , she was being assessed as possibly having ADHD. Everything that was done to try and help her regain her self esteem and improve her relationships with others failed. Many professionals were totally convinced she had learning difficulties. It was not until I had known and tried to help the child for three years, that things came to light quite by chance. One evening her mother was reading an article about an older (anomous for obvious reasons) girl who had reported that a well know local person had abused her for years, the man had been found guilty and given a prison term. The girl was reading the paper too, she quietly told her mother that the man was doing things to her too. The family were hit so hard by the case that they sold up and moved to the other side of the world after the man's term in prison was doubled

 

Whilst cases like GG get big publicity, what most people do not know, is most adult abusers know their victim and their victim's family. The so called "Stranger danger" campaigns do not help children as most most abusers are not strangers, this gives the abuser the upper hand. The media and some education establishments wrongly reinforce the "Stranger" issue, this is what leads to the "old guy in the park" situation. This misguided approach actually makes it easier for 99.999% of abusers as they do not present as strangers.

 

For those of you that have young children, the best defense against abusers, is to help your child develop high levels of self esteem and encourage them understand that they can talk to you about anything that they feel uncomfortable about. If children grow up in an environment where discussing how they feel about things that are said and done to the is normal, they are better placed to head off and abuser in the early stages of grooming a child. Very few abusers make a move on a child until they have gained acceptance by those important to the child. As an abuser has to gain acceptance they will be someone who will grow to know the family quite well. If there is a culture of talking about feeling and behaviour, the abuser is likely to give up very early in the grooming process. If from an early age your child know they must check with you before going anywhere with anyone else, including relatives, you will help them to avoid abuse. It is hard for adults to accept , but most victim's families knew the abuser, and many families and were totally trusting of the abuser.

 

Abuse is spread across all social and economic groups. I was able to contribute a very small part in the exposure of a sexual abuser. He was a millionaire, member of the church, lead adventure activies for 9 to 15 year olds, very well known in the community.

Unfortunately due to his wealth he was able to skip to Europe before the police could grab him.

 

As for GG lock him away and melt the key.

[Angarak]

News Flash:

The police raided Gary Glitters home, they found Class A drugs in the lounge, Class B drugs in the kitchen and the whole of class 4C in the bedroom!

[marbleapple]

We need someone to make jokes about.

 

I heard Gary Glitter has requested after his death that his ashes be put in to an Etch a Sketch so that kids can still fiddle with his knob!

[loks]

So he did make it into HK for a take-away then

[Lbm]

Some time ago I was in position where I had had to help and support familes and victims of men like GG. Victims whoes lives were ruined by these men because they were made to feel guilty for and complicit in the relationship that some times lasted for years.

 

 

In one sad case a young girl was having a very difficult time at school , she was being assessed as possibly having ADHD. Everything that was done to try and help her regain her self esteem and improve her relationships with others failed. Many professionals were totally convinced she had learning difficulties. It was not until I had known and tried to help the child for three years, that things came to light quite by chance. One evening her mother was reading an article about an older (anomous for obvious reasons) girl who had reported that a well know local person had abused her for years, the man had been found guilty and given a prison term. The girl was reading the paper too, she quietly told her mother that the man was doing things to her too. The family were hit so hard by the case that they sold up and moved to the other side of the world after the man's term in prison was doubled

 

Whilst cases like GG get big publicity, what most people do not know, is most adult abusers know their victim and their victim's family. The so called "Stranger danger" campaigns do not help children as most most abusers are not strangers, this gives the abuser the upper hand. The media and some education establishments wrongly reinforce the "Stranger" issue, this is what leads to the "old guy in the park" situation. This misguided approach actually makes it easier for 99.999% of abusers as they do not present as strangers.

 

For those of you that have young children, the best defense against abusers, is to help your child develop high levels of self esteem and encourage them understand that they can talk to you about anything that they feel uncomfortable about. If children grow up in an environment where discussing how they feel about things that are said and done to the is normal, they are better placed to head off and abuser in the early stages of grooming a child. Very few abusers make a move on a child until they have gained acceptance by those important to the child. As an abuser has to gain acceptance they will be someone who will grow to know the family quite well. If there is a culture of talking about feeling and behaviour, the abuser is likely to give up very early in the grooming process. If from an early age your child know they must check with you before going anywhere with anyone else, including relatives, you will help them to avoid abuse. It is hard for adults to accept , but most victim's families knew the abuser, and many families and were totally trusting of the abuser.

 

Abuse is spread across all social and economic groups. I was able to contribute a very small part in the exposure of a sexual abuser. He was a millionaire, member of the church, lead adventure activies for 9 to 15 year olds, very well known in the community.

Unfortunately due to his wealth he was able to skip to Europe before the police could grab him.

 

As for GG lock him away and melt the key.

 

A good post with a fine perspective

[Animal]

So he did make it into HK for a take-away then

 

Repost (from this thread, too)

[lexsum]

jerry sadowitz on glitter:

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyZsHGmttR0

 

(at 4.04)

[mathew]

if they let him back into the country or not i dont really care. there are plenty of paedos out on our streets as it is. atleast with glitter he is so prolific that the spotlight will constantly be on him which surely would deter him from doing anymore kiddy fiddling.