Is this possible?500bhp+150NOS?

[Guest Terry S]

Originally posted by Gareth Davies

I think they're all being a bit paranoid. Why not just do it the US way...

 

AEM ECU = $1500

T88 Turbo = $3500

1600cc Injectors = $1500

Fuel Rail = $300

Twin Fuel Pumps = $500

 

Total $7300 or ~£4800

 

Thats assuming you don't already have :

 

FMIC = $1000

Exhaust = $1000

De-Cats = $500

 

(~£1600 + ~£4800 = ~£6400), Since I even I could do most of the greasy bits I doubt labour would be more than £1k (4 days?). Setup is a whole different ball game, but hey, just copy a setup from some other pep that has done the same and paid for it already.

 

I can't see the need to replace any stock internals until > 500 BHP, and you've got a setup capable of over a 1000BHP when you can find the extra £10k to do it right

 

'Might' spool a little slower than hybrids though

 

ROFLMAO!

 

Who's mapping that ECU?

Can it really control 1600cc injectors! Aren't they a little BIG!!

Doesn't that fuel system need lines?Filters?FPR?

What's the BOV with that turbo kit. What about the compressor surge?

Oil cooled Turbo, Oil cooler?

Any Gaskets?

Clutch or clutches??

FM oil seal, are you not modifying the Oil Pump?

$1000 FMIC that'll be nice!With Hard pipes?

All that fitted for £1k. I will tell Leon not to bother opening that new workshop!!

 

 

 

 

:D

[Gareth Davies]

Hey wasn't exactly being entirely serious there guys.

 

And as I got all my figures from the tome of all truth (supraforums.com). So how dare you doubt them.

 

I can't see the need to replace any of the stock items at 450 / 500 bhp (clutch, gearbox etc.).

 

I couldn't change my wiper blades let alone a turbo, the labour costs were supposed to be amusing. Labour is probably more realistically between 50%-100% the cost of the items.

 

Setup is what you want to pay. Seems to me you can do 80% on 20% of the cash though.

 

All that said I think £7500k for 450BHP on hybrids is a joke though. Everyone here seems to be completly paranoid about toasting engines, where as our americian counterparts seem to not worry about it at all. Thats is what I was trying to illustrate, Maybe we should find a mkiv club inbetween and get a balanced viewpoint.

[Guest Terry S]

Originally posted by Gareth Davies

Everyone here seems to be completly paranoid about toasting engines, where as our americian counterparts seem to not worry about it at all. Thats is what I was trying to illustrate, Maybe we should find a mkiv club inbetween and get a balanced viewpoint.

 

That's because they can get a new short block for $2k!

[randy]

All performance parts seem at least 50% more expensive in the U.K compared to Japan and the US!!

And labour is too much!!

[Guest Terry S]

Lucky you don't live here then!

[GavinL]

Originally posted by Gareth Davies

All that said I think £7500k for 450BHP on hybrids is a joke though. Everyone here seems to be completly paranoid about toasting engines, where as our americian counterparts seem to not worry about it at all. Thats is what I was trying to illustrate, Maybe we should find a mkiv club inbetween and get a balanced viewpoint.

 

This is what i spent on my uk spec:

 

FMIC £750

Boost Controller £250

FCD £25

3" exhaust £350

3" Decat DP £215

Hybrid Turbo's £1,500

Uprated fuel pump £175

Uprated fuel reg £125

Hard Pipe kit £150

HKS cams and Gears £675

Oil Cooler £250

 

 

That lot came too just over £4000 plus labour. Some of those parts were secondhand and some of them were not strictly essential. In fact if you drop the hardpipes, regulator, cams and oil cooler the total would be around £3000 plus labour.

 

It's also worth bearing in mind that if you go BPU with a branded exhaust that will cost you around £1000 + labour

[Gareth Davies]

I'd definatly prefer Gavins way to Ians...

 

You're ~£3k better off

 

And yes Randy, we know everything costs shedloads more. If you're really going mental it's probably worth shipping your car over to the states getting all the work done and ship it back!

 

Plus you get a free 20% power upgrade

[Ian C]

Originally posted by Gareth Davies

Everyone here seems to be completly paranoid about toasting engines,

 

Well, duh.

 

-Ian

[Ian C]

That's the comedy reply out the way (no offence intended, Gareth ).

 

Notice in my £7500 estimate I've covered everything because from experience in any upgrade or overhaul, you easily forget the pissy little bits that bump the costs up.

 

e.g. Gavin has missed out the extraneous bits that his upgrades had to incur, like the plugs, gaskets, coolant, oil, filters, petrol, etc. and don't forget he's got a UK spec, so that's no fuel computer, injectors + ultrasound cleaning, or resistor pack required. And associated postage costs. And no setting up (although you should at least get the fuelling checked...).

 

It all mounts up - damn near a grand off the cost already by not needing or missing out bits And don't forget some bits were 2nd hand (which is not a bad thing in my book!)

 

Although I did forget the FCD off my list

 

And I overprice things by rounding up to the nearest £50 so that I don't get bitten on the arse by being over-optimistic, e.g. I costed the boost controller at £400. That way if you score one for £250 you have £150 in reserve for whatever else. Oh look, that's paid for the FCD I forgot about and I'm still in budget

 

Basically, if you budget £7500 for getting a bog stock j-spec to a top banana hybrid setup and do most of the work yourself, you should get some cash left over and will have all the bits required at the quality required. If you budget £4000, good luck.

 

I think the people who have sat and researched their upgrades and sourced & bought all the bits themselves and installed it themselves will tell you that this really is from experience Eh, Terry?!

 

-Ian

 

eidted for this PS - This can read a bit pissy, but I'm not ripping into Gareth or anyone here (I appreciate his post was for comedy value), I'm just stating this stuff for the benefit of those interested in modding their cars and for general interest. Take it how you will

[Digsy]

Originally posted by Ian C

This can read a bit pissy.... Take it how you will

 

Couldn't possibly hold anything aganist your post. Not with that many smileys!

[Gareth Davies]

I've got one thing against it...

 

No 's

 

I think we all know the little things soon add up with these kind of mods. And running the mindset of overestimate then feel better after is a good one. It's like getting a PO signed off at work, if it's less you've got some more money to play with

 

Err of course what I meant to say is the excess is returned to accouting for appropriate redistribution.

 

I recall talking to someone at billing about the various costs (My personal feeling is it's about £10k for a reasonable single upgrade from my current car), and they looked at me like I'd gone mad that I was willing to spend that much. But at the end of the day what kind of car could you buy for that?

 

God knows how much Terry has spent on his car, but i'll bet that there isn't any new car that could touch it for the money. Infact there's probably very few cars at ALL that could touch it.

 

Maybe i'm just getting infected by the americans, but 450bhp should be a walk in the park for a supra, BPU + hybrids should be fine. And it seems most of us bought our cars most of the way to BPU anyway. Infact I'd guess a UK spec could run 450 with just upgrading the turbos (or Naws). Geez our US friends manage 500 (A)BHP on stock turbos and BPU! Just if someone asked me how much it cost to get a stock supra to 450BHP - £7500 seems a load of money. But I had the luxury of not having to pay for all my bits since they were already on the car

 

But a 650 BHP engine is 'probably' pushing stock a tiny bit too hard.

[Ian C]

:moo: :moo: :moo: :moo:

 

I'm nothing if not predictable.

 

-Ian

[randy]

This is what BPU costed me!

 

HKS -MIDPIPE- $135+ EMS to location $80=$215

FRONT PIPE custom made 2 3/4" polished SS homemade= $80

GREDDY PROFEC- B-spec= $280

GREDDY BOOST CUT CONTROLLER= $98

GREDDY 60mm boost gauge/peak hold =$ 170

HKS SUPER POWER FLOW KIT=$ 141

SARD R2D2 RACING BLOW OFF VALVE=$182

 

TOTAL=$ 1166

LABOUR CHARGE= $100

 

 

I luckly had a HKS 'PRIEST' exhaust and a Greddy turbo timer on when I bought the car!

Randy:)

[Guest Terry S]

That must be 500 bhp easy Randy!

 

I am out of here you guys on Hols. Back in 2 weeks. Take care.

[randy]

Originally posted by Terry Saunders

That must be 500 bhp easy Randy!

 

I am out of here you guys on Hols. Back in 2 weeks. Take care.

 

[terence]

hmm, interesting talk, ive just read the whole lot from beginning to end and it makes good reading with lots of different views.

with ref to the crank and rods and pistons, i found the standard mkiv pistons to be the same as used in the 2.5tt mkiii, these were actually a higher spec piston with regaurds to handling psi than any of the after market performance piston i could find, ( not to say there arnt any but not in our price range )not the weight department but the abuse they could take b4 colapse, hense we didnt change them. you can change the profile of the piston a little, ie skirt height etc to lose a little weight and so on, but remember there are other factors to concider when doing this.

I found a toyota dealer who could sell new mkiv pistons for £35 each, so when buying after market stuff at a £1000 plus, weigh up the odds etc

 

I beieve the crank and rods to be cast as are the pistons, ( i await other peoples coments )on my crank the edges have been rounded to prevent stress fractures appearing leading to failure, lightened and balanced and nitro tufrigded ( cant spell ) the same with the rods and also polished.

this will allow me to put more stress caused by upgrades and move the failure point further away hopefully. ( sure i can buy a billet crank that will withstand higher treatment but it costs big bucks, this is just using what i already have )

 

My block is also receiving the same treatment but not tufridged, again to remove any stress fractures that could apear.

Along with new shells etc, not changing the front pulley as it provids balance and harmony throughout the rev range, I dont like lightened or after market pulleys, fine maybe if you rebuild your engine every day or after a race but not for road use, read an article about harmonics in cranks and pulleys.

 

my head is going to be flowed to allow by hybrids ( built to my spec ) to work as best as possible, ( idea being to create as free flowing air route as possible from induction through to exhaust ) every port hole will be matched equally to allow for no interference of air flow. ( sure i could rework the head with bigger valves and machine all the valve guides and so on for less interference but it all costs big dough, im just reworking what I have)

 

cams are hks 256 exhaust ( cheap thanks to Gavin ) and uk inlet reworked for longer lift ( again thanks to gavin), cam pulleys, squish and compression set up,( again the varies according to how much psi and nos I use, dont want a melt down ) everything will be lightened and balanced and weighted equally ( not to a riduculas point but just to remove the manufactoring casts ) and to run some nos, ( the nos is for nothing else other than spooling up the turbos ). due to the creation of lag by the hybrids, ( the nos is just to fill the whole created low down to bring on the spooling earleir thats all)

 

And then the rest of the usual stuff, exhaust, induction, Ic, injectors, fuel pump ( uk fuel pump for the fuel rail & j spec pump purley for the nos ) turbo's will be fully reworked and run a true set up, the induction housings will be milled and impellers changed and exhaust ports flowed along with wastegate and exhaust manifold. + the other bits.

Basicly as much as the stock parameters will allow with out changing to aftermarket turbos ay hugh expense.

 

That basicly concludes the tune of the engine ( ie blueprinting, if you were to look at how the supra engine was designed on the drawing board you would find a very different engine in your car, simply cos of materials, manufacturing costs and the ability to build as it was desigend ) other than fueling, my problem is which way to go with the set up of the fueling, this can only be done on a engine bench test or a rolling road, that will probably cost more then the cost of the tune.

 

All i am doing is removing the restrictons that are inbuilt, and to optamise the engine I have with out going into changing everything outside of what I have.

 

If i had an endless pot of money i would have a totaly different engine and probably car for that matter, I am just utualising what I have under my bonnet.

 

when set up properly it should be quick with lots of torque, torque is my thing over bhp any day, torque is what makes your car move, I will have a maximum setup on the dyno and then slightly down tune for saftey margins but I would expect a genuine 500 bhp with very little lag, ie straight from the word go, no waiting ( waiting for spool means spotty little teanager will be gone b4 u. ) now we dont want that do we.

 

Terry

 

I await the barage of comments, bring it on, LOL

 

ps there is an awfull lot of other bits ive left out when building an enine, but would take to long to write down.

 

thanks for the debate about pipework and headers etc, it answered ?s I had.

 

happy supra motoring.

[mark brown]

Terry, you are going down the route exactly of what I have done and I think it gives excellent power for the money.

 

I'd love to be able to put in a big single or twins, but I can't justify the money.

 

NOS fills the hole left by the lag nicely, but I only use it occasionally.

 

Good Luck

 

Mark Brown

[Digsy]

Originally posted by terence

I beieve the crank and rods to be cast as are the pistons, ( i await other peoples coments )on my crank the edges have been rounded to prevent stress fractures appearing leading to failure, lightened and balanced and nitro tufrigded ( cant spell ) the same with the rods and also polished.

 

My block is also receiving the same treatment but not tufridged, again to remove any stress fractures that could apear.

 

Along with new shells etc, not changing the front pulley as it provids balance and harmony throughout the rev range, I dont like lightened or after market pulleys, fine maybe if you rebuild your engine every day or after a race but not for road use, read an article about harmonics in cranks and pulleys.

 

Just a few comments:

 

MKIV.com does say that the rods are forged. It does not mention if the pistons or crank are, but apparently there is some evidence from the US that says the crank is.

 

I would be interested in seeing some details of the crank "rounding" you describe, and also the similar treatment that your block is going to get.

 

If you are going to have your crank lightened, you may as well bin the front pulley anway, as you will change the cranktrain tuning so the stock TVD will be useless.

 

I think you are the first person I've seen on here to mention fitting upgraded bearing shells (apologies to anyone else if not).

[terence]

Hi darren

 

as i said before there is so much i left out, i only skimmed the basics, im finding it very difficult to say anything on this list cos if i dont cover every possible eventuality when commenting on a topic people find the missing info and start asuming.

 

the rounding of the crank is purley to take away any edges which under load can cause stress fractures to apear, by rounding of the edges you remove the possibilty of it happening, the same for flash markings, round curved areas are less prone to fractures cos the crack if you like cant start on a curved area like it can on a corner area.

 

polishing the crank & rods is also good too, my crank would have the maching done first ie rounding, polishing, tuftriged and then the whole assembly ie front pulley, crank & ring gear would be balanced as a unit, this way the whole bottom end is in tune.

 

it is then very important to keep the ring gear bolted to the crank in the same position every time in order to keep balancement.

 

the rods would receicve the same treatment, rounded, shotpeaned, polished, weighted equaly and tufridged.

 

The pistons would be reworked, lightened and weighted so they were all the same, this way the whole bottom end would be able to spin up quicker, less prone to stress fractures and would be able to deal with more load b4 failure.

 

I would have the bearings on the bigs plastigauged to ensure correct tolerence as well as the main bearings.

 

by doing all this it means the whole bottom end can take more of a load whereas a standard bottom end could fail.

 

if you are any good at this sort of thing you can do most of it your self, although i wouldnt advise it if you have no experience, i build engines and transmissions everyday of my life, so i have some idea, I dont claim to be the best in the world, I just do what I think is right and it hasnt let me down yet or failed.

Im not in the same legue as say chris wilson but i have built more engines from the humble lawn mower to big v16 detroit 2 stroke diesels in motor scrapers and everything in between than i can remember. I also build race engines for motorcyles for an endurance team along with suspension set up as well as a power bike i race when i get my act together.

 

Terry

[Digsy]

Originally posted by terence

Hi darren

the rounding of the crank is purley to take away any edges which under load can cause stress fractures to apear, by rounding of the edges you remove the possibilty of it happening, the same for flash markings, round curved areas are less prone to fractures cos the crack if you like cant start on a curved area like it can on a corner area.

 

polishing the crank & rods is also good too, my crank would have the maching done first ie rounding, polishing, tuftriged and then the whole assembly ie front pulley, crank & ring gear would be balanced as a unit, this way the whole bottom end is in tune.

 

it is then very important to keep the ring gear bolted to the crank in the same position every time in order to keep balancement.

 

the rods would receicve the same treatment, rounded, shotpeaned, polished, weighted equaly and tufridged.

Terry

 

No arguments on the theory of rounding. All sound stuff. I was wondering where you were going to do it? If you are going to do it all over, then I guess you've answered my question. The most highly stressed parst of a crank are the fillets and oil holes, however. You can shot-peen the fillets and there is also a process called "ballizing" (no sniggering at the back!) which does the same for the oil hole breakouts. A spherical tool is pressed under high pressure into the open end of the oil hole to do the same job as shot peening, but without damaging the bearing surface.

 

As for the front crank pulley / TVD, I have no doubt that you can balance the whole assembly as a purely rotating mass, but if you alter the masses of the component parts of the cranktrain, then the rubber damper and inertia mass of the pulley will be out of tune with the vibrations in the cranktrain, with unpredictable results.

 

Nice to hear of a complete teardown job!

[terence]

then the rubber damper and inertia mass of the pulley will be out of tune with the vibrations in the cranktrain, with unpredictable results.

>

 

yes i would agree to a point, but im not lightening to such a degree, only the surface edgeing, so i cant see it being to far off the mark,

 

you would have to have the crank measured for vibration and enertia and have a purpose built pulley for it, how much would that be.

 

as i said before, i am using what i have, answer to your block ? is all the surfaces inside the area where crank sits which have sqaure edges, ie the webbing the holds the crank really and the caps, although the 2.5tt block was already like this when i came to do it, good quality that engine, billet crank, forged rods, it was so well set up it was hard to improve on it within the budget.

 

you seam to be against the front pulley, have you had other experience with aftermarket parts then, it is a grey area.

 

Terry

[Digsy]

Nothing aganst the stock pulley at all (I seem to have been posting a lot about it recently, though). A few people have posted stuff about it recently. I wondered whether you had read one of my other posts when you said you were going to keep the pulley because of its damper function, but then you said you were having the cranktrain lightened so I wondered if you knew that this would affect the pulley. Now I know that your cranktain mods are minor, and limited to removing sharp edges, so it probably wont make much difference to the TVD.

 

Terry Saunders says there is no prob with running without the stock TVD altogther on the stock crank.

 

A special TVD would be sh*tloads, and I don't think any of the mainstream companies would be interested. It would probably be simpler to go for a gorilla-strength billet crank and forego the TVD altogether if it got to the point where anyone thought it would be a concern.