V8 conversions - 2uzfe vs Ls1

[Homer]

Following the recent threads by Eric, and to avoid taking those off-topic I wanted to raise some questions about the various possible V8 installs.

 

My own conversion is still planned for an LS1 V8 transplant, but these recent threads about the uzfe engines has raised some valid points. So, what are the benefits and drawbacks of each engine?

 

LS1

Benefits:

- High torque from stock motor

- Very easy and cheap to upgrade to very high power levels

- Supercharger conversion is very cost effective

- Easy and cheap availabilty of parts, stock or aftermarket

- Fuel injected and relatively good mpg

- Torque curve is near flat from 1.5k rpm

Drawbacks:

- Doesn't like high rpm

- High initial cost (circa £3k for the engine loom and ECU, £1k for the T56 box and clutch)

- Custom engine & trans mounts and prop needed

 

2uzfe

Benefits:

- Modern engine with 24v so smoother and more fuel effcient

- lighter weight (?)

- High revving engine

- Easy fit (?)

Drawbacks:

- Very expensive (twice the price of an LS1 and 50% more than LS2)

- Parts availabilty and support in the UK

 

Does anyone have have thoughts on the options for conversion? There are many more details to it than above and more options that the LS1 as an alternative obviously but it'd take forever to mention in the first post.

[AlanM]

Subscribed - but just watching, knowledge level low

[Scooter]

why not a 1uzfe?

[j_jza80]

I would definately be mentioning the easy fit of the Toyota V8. When Thor built thier V8 demo car, they mentioned that parts compatability was amazing. Almost like Toyota had intended to fit the V8 engine to the Supra.

I bet alot of the extra cost of the Toyota V8 would be made back by being able to use alot of off the shelf parts.

 

http://www.thor-racing.co.uk/THORThunder-191.asp

[PJ]

I would definately be mentioning the easy fit of the Toyota V8. When Thor built thier V8 demo car, they mentioned that parts compatability was amazing. Almost like Toyota had intended to fit the V8 engine to the Supra.

I bet alot of the extra cost of the Toyota V8 would be made back by being able to use alot of off the shelf parts.

 

http://www.thor-racing.co.uk/THORThunder-191.asp

 

That doesn't suprise me overly as it goes, after all it was available in the Aristo between 1992-1997 as one of the alternative power plants to the 2JZ-GTE and 2JZ-GE, both of which went on to be used in the MKIV Supra. Makes sense that the 1UZ-FE would go in with relative ease.

 

Also going with the 1UZ-FE you can use and adaptor plate, which will fit between the 1UZ crankcase and a JZ pattern bellhousing (R154, W58, or V160/1). So gives you some gearbox options to play with there as well.

 

Supercharging is easy apparently, as is sourcing one in the UK I would have though. 4ltr Soarers are quite abundant.

Edited July 24, 2008 by PJ (see edit history)

[Homer]

I would definately be mentioning the easy fit of the Toyota V8. When Thor built thier V8 demo car, they mentioned that parts compatability was amazing. Almost like Toyota had intended to fit the V8 engine to the Supra.

I bet alot of the extra cost of the Toyota V8 would be made back by being able to use alot of off the shelf parts.

 

http://www.thor-racing.co.uk/THORThunder-191.asp

 

But after speaking to them about the costs, it was still for more than the LS1 conversion and even after the massive cost they layed out, it was still only 280hp at the flywheel (so about 235bhp at the rear wheels). It's not a drop in engine and still needs fabrication. Thats a very long way off what even a basic unmodded LS1 can do.

[cowboy bebop]

Homer, would it both be NA applications?

 

Thanks man,

 

Eric

[Homer]

Homer, would it both be NA applications?

 

Thanks man,

 

Eric

 

Yes, lets say both are NA and with the option for future modification to medium levels of torque (500ib/ft across the bulk of the rev range. Thats real figures btw, not in house dyno ones ). It's a subject a few of us have been discussing off forum so thought it a good time to bring the subject up on here. Also I didn't want to take your other threads off topic hence the new one.

 

Very interested in hearing your views on this Eric

[cowboy bebop]

Well, I've put some thought into how to approach it. I suppose a short outline with a brief commentary would be most clear Bear in mind that much of this only my opinion.

 

Let's say for instance that you have a 2jz single turbo and want something with a little less lag, or you have a BPU MKIV and want something with more HP/TQ. Now you're faced with a choice on V8 swaps. You can go with the American LS1 or the Toyota 2uzfe. The Pro's and con's.

 

LS1 Pro's

 

..Well on the surface it's easy to see the pro's. The LS1 come with more displacement, and overall cheap parts to built the motor. Overall light weight, and good NA power.

 

LS1 Con's

 

...There's not a big UK presence, not like in the USA where everyone has one in the front lawn. The motor doesn't like to be revved like the Toyota V8 does. To mount it in the Supra does take some doing. Custom motor mounts, custom subframe, the works. Overall it would be a pioneering feat in terms of fabrication.

 

2uz pro's

 

... The 2uz pro's are pretty clear. Toyota to Toyota compatability comes first to mind. The motor can be built to drop directly into the MKIV Supra with addition of a simple set of premade motor mounts. The almighty V160 can be retained using the adapter plate, and the clutch selction while small, is robust. The heads are a work of art as are is the 4 valve configuration. The cams come in about 15 different profiles so there's one to suit every need. UK support for the Toyota V8's is good. For the 2uz, good HP can be had, near as makes no difference to the LS1.

 

2uz con's

 

... the cons are also readily clear as well. There are 4 cams, and 32 valves, and while that's great for performance, it's more parts to consider. The parts for the V8 while more available now , are harder to come by. The displacement is a bit less save for the stroked out versions. The iron block does weigh a bit more than the LS1, but I should say that it's equal to a 2jz roughly.

 

All in all, I'd say for an ease of install the 2uz is the shining choice. Consider this. The 3.0L makes tremendous power, that's well and clear. Now add 1.7L to the equation to the 4 valve equation and there's tremendous power potential. So the real question is how much displacement is really needed to mark massive improvement in spool and torque? I really think that 4.7L meets that mark. The "gain in displacement/HP/TQ vs. the pain in the ass to make it work" ratio very much favors the Toyota 2uz V8.

 

Thanks gents!

 

Eric

Edited July 25, 2008 by cowboy bebop (see edit history)

[jevansio]

What are the limits of each block in terms of power before you have to crack them open?

[Alex]

I believe the 2UZ-FE needs a fair amount of work from stock as the heads are made quite restrictive (though there is plenty of scope to expand them).

 

The LS1 is And Ali block and despite it's larger displacement, is less heavy than the cast iron 2UZ.

[UltraFlynn]

I believe the 2UZ-FE needs a fair amount of work from stock as the heads are made quite restrictive (though there is plenty of scope to expand them).

 

Doesn't that contradict what Eric said:

 

The heads are a work of art as are is the 4 valve configuration.

[Alex]

Doesn't that contradict what Eric said:

 

It does and it doesn't. I'm under the impression from a post Eric wrote a long time ago that they are a great *design* but limited in stock form. This may just be the valve area though...

[Chris Wilson]

I always find a basic price comparison on full engine overhaul OE gasket sets gives a good insight on relative parts prices for two different engines. How much is a FULL GM engine gasket set, and for the Lexus set?

 

As an aside, what are the torque figures for both stock engines?

[outatime]

I always find a basic price comparison on full engine overhaul OE gasket sets gives a good insight on relative parts prices for two different engines. How much is a FULL GM engine gasket set, and for the Lexus set?

 

As an aside, what are the torque figures for both stock engines?

 

My LS1 is 375 ft lb, the first generation were 350 ft lbs.

 

The 2UZ-FE is 315 ft lb, I think.

 

Technical issues aside, the LS1 is a very nice engine to drive. It gets reasonable MPG - I averaged around 27 over 3000 miles in Europe, and the huge torque from tickover (300 ft lb at 1000 rpm) makes it very tractable.

 

It does not rev massively, but doesn't need to - it isn't that kind of engine. It still surprises me when I boot it, and look at the HUD to see only 3k RPM.

 

The Toyota engine sounds like a lot less hassle though

[cowboy bebop]

I believe the 2UZ-FE needs a fair amount of work from stock as the heads are made quite restrictive (though there is plenty of scope to expand them).

 

The LS1 is And Ali block and despite it's larger displacement, is less heavy than the cast iron 2UZ.

 

While it's true with the old and antiquated 1uz non VVt-I engines from the early 1990's, the much newer 2uz and 1/3uz VVt-I engines have new updated heads that are not restrictive at all. The 2uz heads are imho better than the 2jz in terms of port size, and exhaust port exit angle. The ports on the 2uz heads are just massive.

 

The LS1 is lighter than the 2uz as the LS1 is an aluminum block and the 2uz is an iron block. Plus stock for stock, the LS1 will make more HP/TQ than the 2uz since the 2uz has 1L less displacement. The key look at though is the fact that we're using the MKIV Supra as a yard stick. Today a stock 2uz can be fitted to the MKIV with relatively little trouble. For the LS1 to be fitted, you willned custom motor mounts, a custom subframe, custom oil pans and rising above all that, the transmission has to be changed to a T56 or similar. It really is a big undertaking.

 

Just my opinion, though,

 

Thanks!

 

Eric

[Chris Wilson]

How much are exhaust manifolds (headers to you), and downpipes for the Lexus V8 in a MKIV chassis? How do you wire up the ecu and keep all OE stock functionality of the 2JZ ecu? Does the block accept 2JZ pattern gearboxes / bellhousings direct, or is an adaptor plate needed? How much are they please Eric? Engine mounts? Cheers.

[cowboy bebop]

How much are exhaust manifolds (headers to you), and downpipes for the Lexus V8 in a MKIV chassis? How do you wire up the ecu and keep all OE stock functionality of the 2JZ ecu? Does the block accept 2JZ pattern gearboxes / bellhousings direct, or is an adaptor plate needed? How much are they please Eric? Engine mounts? Cheers.

 

Hi Chris,

 

The ECU has to be a standalone since the 2jz ECU is looking for 6 cylinders instead of 8. I highly recommend the Link G3 Plus as it has a long list of features, most crucial of which is the ability to run 8 coils sequentially. There are two trusted fellows I would charge with making the engine harness, one in New Zealand and the other in Texas. With the harness and standalone, the MKIV retains full functionality including tach, speedo, A/C, and PS.

 

The 2uz block is different from the 2jz bellhousing pattern so an adapter plate is needed to mate a manual transmission. On the auto boxes, a Lexus bellhousing can be used.

 

The 2uz engine mounts are like something from another planet, so we had to fabricate a set of mounts that mate to the Supra subframe. With these mounts and a set of Soarer V8 rubber isolators, the V8 drops into the subframe perfectly. I dropped mine in by myself with full turbo kit attached in the course of 10 minutes.

 

The headers can be gotten off the shelf from S&S. They make a fine product. As for exhaust, the MKIV owner can us pat off of a Soarer or simplly have the exahsut fabbed on the lift. All told with headers, ecu, harness, adapter, and steel engine mounts, the total is 2485GBP.

 

Thanks Chris,

 

Eric

[MarkR]

Here's an article on the 2UZ that I found interesting. Terrible writing style though.

 

http://www.lextreme.com/tundra.html

[MarkR]

And another with links to other cool articles as well as detailed info on the rods, with weights etc... http://lextreme.com/rods.html

[ray007]

im so glad you started this thread Darryl, the same question has been lingering in my mind the last few days!!!

[Gaz6002]

LS1 = old school

[TRD-Rob]

LS1 = old school

 

just like darryl then

[Homer]

LS1 = old school

 

But still capable

 

I could write for hours about what I found after this thread, but will simply state that any conversion to a US motor is a very expensive path to head down. To get a similar level of torque as a mid-level modified chevy lump or highly modified Toyota V8, a single turbo 2JZ-GTE make far more sense both financially and for future upgrades. The Toyota V8 makes no sense at all if good power is the target, the only really viable path is a fairly modern alu Chevy lump.

 

I've well and truly shelved the plans for a V8 supra unless a lottery win happens.

[Stephendjb]

Not meaning to be picky, but 2uzfe 32 valve not 24v surely?