Anyone on here in the TA?

[Andy-No-Knee]

I think this post by Vaughany puts the whole TA-thing in to true perspective.

 

Personally, I would rather have my son’s Teddy Bear protecting my arse than have a TA bloke. I know where I stand with the Teddy Bear and he definitely has more operational skills than the TA fella.

 

 

And with statements like that I see the Arab Vs Stab feeling is still alive and kicking.

 

Shame really seeing as the TA send blokes off to help you lot out and then when they get killed doing the same job as you you still behave like a tool.

 

http://www.lastingtribute.co.uk/tribute/sadler/2686874

and

http://www.lastingtribute.co.uk/tribute/whittaker/2842285

 

Strange how Jack, a TA soldier managed to go on Ops as part of the BRF instead of being posted to guard a gate somewhere while they sent a much better trained etc reg to do the job. Probably because over 70% of people who attempt the STA course fail, thats regs.

 

The attitude is very last war....last century.

 

Dont get me wrong, I'm not saying that TA guys are as good as the regs, they are not, not until they have completed there pre deployment training and then for some of them you cannot tell the difference.

 

I know TA units that have done the same training as reg inf recce units and passed the course with a higher score and then went on to Ops and did the job, chosen over reg units.

 

Other TA units I would not trust to see me safely home from a night out in Hoxton!

 

But you go ahead and tar all TA units with the same brush. We are helping the Regular Army out of a huge hole that the Gov has thrown them into, so you think they would be greatfull. And most are, infact all the ones I have worked with both on ops and exercises have not been able to tell the difference between me and my troops to regs and have changed thier minds about the TA.

 

Some, the ones that have either not deployed, or deployed with a bunch of useless soldiers (be they TA or Reg) like to assume that the crap ones are all/only TA.

 

Others, left the Army some time ago and have not seen what the TA can do on Ops.

 

 

And why join the Regs when you get to do all the fun stuff in the TA but dont have to live on a Garisson in substandard housing with substandard pay?

 

(That isnt a dig at Regs, but the way this poxy govt treat them)

[Tourniquet]

Well put sir.

 

I see why the regs might feel this way about the TA but in my mind I had the same training on the same pay as the regular Para's but I got to go home in my Supra to my nice house at the end of it all.

 

Obviously after pre-deployment training, climatisation and a tour or two TA soldiers are going to have experience but that's the same for regs also and no one knows how you are going to react to your first contact until you are there. There is absolutely nothing to say that a TA soldier couldn't become a VC winning hero, I say it's down to the individual person along as well as their training.

 

On a weekender we were digging a land rover out of a hole when some guys from a 'lesser' unit (according to the L/C - crap hats as they call them) came tabbing past going the other way. Some of them were flying past and were told to come join the Para's and a while later a guy came stumbling up the hill carring his SA80 by the iron sights. The L/C proceeded to tell him it was an f'ing carry handle to which he replied something along the lines of "it's not a f'ing carry handle Sir" ! Turned out he was a Captain or something of the regiment and the L/C said what hope have the poor bar stewards got if they're being trained by someone as sloppy as that who actually has a position !

 

I say hats off to all in the forces regardless of regiment and hours worked. My friend is and aircraft engineer. He fixes the choppers ect so jobs can be done - he gets the same campaigne medal as the guys on the front line AND the pen pushers sat at desks in safety but his part is just as vital imo. I think it's the w**ky government who deserve the abuse etc that some of our boys and girls have received in the past, not them.

[Vaughany]

Well put sir.

 

I see why the regs might feel this way about the TA but in my mind I had the same training on the same pay as the regular Para's but I got to go home in my Supra to my nice house at the end of it all.

 

Tourniquet, not to lessen your achievements mate, congrats in serving with the TA Para Reg but as a TA Para I would have to strongly argue that you have undergone the same training as myself or any soldier in any of the regular Parachute battalions. Aspects are the same and yes you done P Company etc.

 

However when I went through Depot Para it was six months of the most intensive training starting at 5am and finsihing at midnight. It is this 24/7 life that makes the regulars different.

1. Room jobs and inspections
   
2. Constant work and beastings
   
3. the hard routine of depot
   
4. the onset of prolonged training
   
5. No escape
   
6. constant barrage from the NCO'S
   

it is all of the above and more that makes the difference, my training was 24/7, I lived it. 6 months of training in Depot (4707 hrs of training) and this is just to get you to your Battalion and then the real training and learning starts.

 

Not to make this regiment specific but no TA soldier has undergone the same amount of training at such a prolonged intensity as a regular soldier. For this reason the regulars are better trained and equipped in the vast majority. Like I said there are exceptions but these are not the norm.

 

Not to dampen your achievements as earning the red beret has been a great achievement but when i was serving the regulars did not have the same respect for the S types (T.A) as the regulars serving and generally the TA were less reliable, a little bit of the civvy always creeped in.

[Tourniquet]

Yeah I can understand that Vaughany - 24/7 army is obviously the heavy duty real thing and I didn't mean any offence to the regs in anything I said, I just wanted to applaude everyone of all regiments for anything and everything they do.

 

I have a bit of tunnel vision I must say with the army coz I hold the Para's in high regard as they are the regiment I am interested in. Whenever there's news on the British army Im glued to it whoever it is but more so if the Parachute Regiment are mentioned and when the lads in 2 Para unfortunately died I pulled that out for my kind of war diary/scrap book thing.

 

I only know about the regulars from what I've read in books by ex-personnel so I guess it was a bit incensitive to think it's the same for the regs just with more hours for which I appologise but all the same, as I wasn't in the depot and serving full time I only know from what I tried to do (and it was bloody hard lol) so I think anyone who has a go deserves a bit of respect as it is hard to do.

 

With your 4707 hours of training I understand fully, I just hope that in time TA guys can get the training needed, it's just unfortunate the government have put the army in the position where they may need to rely on the TA for numbers

[ivan]

Yep;

Candidates must first undergo Special Forces Selection with the SAS before continuing to SBS selection.

 

Not really that relevant I know, just that you were making out that the SAS are the best of everything, and I'm picky so just thought I'd say that the SBS are better.

 

Let's just see that quote in full then:

The Special Boat Service (SBS) is the British Royal Navy's special forces unit. The service's motto is "By Strength and Guile". It forms part of the United Kingdom Special Forces, alongside the Special Air Service (SAS) and the Special Reconnaissance Regiment (SRR).

The SBS is an independent unit of the Royal Marines and is based with 1 Assault Group Royal Marines and the British Army's 148 Commando Forward Observation Battery in Royal Marines Poole, in Poole, Dorset.

Selection:

To be eligible for SBS selection, a candidate must have at least two years regular service. Formerly candidates were from the Royal Marines or the Royal Navy, but now volunteers are taken from any arm of the services. In order to qualify as a Swimmer Canoeist, Candidates must first undergo Special Forces Selection with the SAS before continuing to SBS selection.

As I said - they're NOT Army.

 

Yours sincerely,

Mr Picky from Poole.

[SupraAyf]

 

Dont get me wrong, I'm not saying that TA guys are as good as the regs, they are not, not until they have completed there pre deployment training and then for some of them you cannot tell the difference.

 

If you think a simple pre-deployment phase alleviates many years of inexperience through weekend training sessions then you really have got things wrong. Soldiering is a way of life and not a hobby IMO.

 

But you go ahead and tar all TA units with the same brush. We are helping the Regular Army out of a huge hole that the Gov has thrown them into, so you think they would be greatfull. And most are, infact all the ones I have worked with both on ops and exercises have not been able to tell the difference between me and my troops to regs and have changed thier minds about the TA.

 

In 2004/2005, PJHQ attempted to deploy droves of TA Officers to Iraq in order to backfill the 20% manning deficiency that was present in all British formation HQ's deployed within IQ. This sounded great at first but the operational system soon realised that the TA Officer types (Capt to Col) who were being deployed to E2 appointments were not sufficiently experienced in operational doctrine, policy and phase-line deployments to affect a postive outcome against force-multiplication ethics at the time.

 

As you can imagine this caused immense problems to the forward deployed Commanding Officers as they were receiving so-called 'critical-path direction' from formation staff that was both poorly planned and inefficiently executed. To this extent, there were a very high number of operational feck-ups that occurred as a consequence of TA Officers playing a game which was just too complicated for them. A high percentage of the TA Field Officer ranks were unable to understand the TLA's and military doctrine so how the hell PJHQ could ever think that they could write new operational doctrine is a wonder in my eyes (and the UK GOC’s, Div COS at the time).

 

In late 2004/early 2005, all formation HQ's deployed to IQ specifically requested that no further TA officers deploy to Formation Staff appointments as the respective HQ's could no longer support their inefficiencies. This was not a PJHQ directive but a Senior Formation directive working on the proviso that regular ground troops could not be governed by people who were not sufficiently experienced and trained in the staff and command roles.

 

 

And why join the Regs when you get to do all the fun stuff

 

But it's the not-so-fun stuff that turns the civillian guy in to a soldier

[Andy-No-Knee]

Ahhh now I can see where you are going, and I totally agree with you.

 

For some reason I was thinking you were saying the Toms were that shoit.... but the ruperts... well.....what does anyone really expect??? (Not diggin Ruperts either, just to much to learn not enough time to do it..)

 

 

Ok, a bit of background, I'm on a 2 year posting to an RTC teaching potential TA Officers up to ad through Sandhurst. There is no way that the time required to get them to the required standard to pass is enough to get them to the required standard to be capable in theatre. The skills gap is just too wide due to the part time nature. 99% of the guys and gals I deal with are up for imeadiate deployment after commissioning, however the CoC makes them wait 2 years to gain experience. But even that is not enough.

 

Toms, now that is different and as I say again unit dependant. If there is a good Training Major and PSI's (and unlike your post saying the Regs only send the chaff they want to get rid of I have only seen that in my unit 3 times in 15 years. One was the only Reg CO we have had...He was a complete tool, son of the CGS so he had to get a Regt Col-cy though, and 2 PSI's who were TA 'S' types prior to us and the Reg unit wanted to get rid) then the level of training is of a good standard. Admittidly it is not to the same tempo as Regs can be, but do the Regs spend 2 weeks out of every 4 in the field??? Fek No, and they didnt when I was a Reg either.

 

 

And it is the not so fun stuff that was part of the reason why I left and joined the TA, why bother to live in camp, be dicked for stag when the married guys dont get so much just cos your single. Loads of the boys then marry some hoofer just to get out of barracks and into a pad, and the joy of boring routine 'make work' as there is fek all esle to do. Yep all of that really helped me be a soldier.

[Vaughany]

Yeah I can understand that Vaughany - 24/7 army is obviously the heavy duty real thing and I didn't mean any offence to the regs in anything I said, I just wanted to applaude everyone of all regiments for anything and everything they do.

 

I have a bit of tunnel vision I must say with the army coz I hold the Para's in high regard as they are the regiment I am interested in. Whenever there's news on the British army Im glued to it whoever it is but more so if the Parachute Regiment are mentioned and when the lads in 2 Para unfortunately died I pulled that out for my kind of war diary/scrap book thing.

 

I only know about the regulars from what I've read in books by ex-personnel so I guess it was a bit incensitive to think it's the same for the regs just with more hours for which I appologise but all the same, as I wasn't in the depot and serving full time I only know from what I tried to do (and it was bloody hard lol) so I think anyone who has a go deserves a bit of respect as it is hard to do.

 

With your 4707 hours of training I understand fully, I just hope that in time TA guys can get the training needed, it's just unfortunate the government have put the army in the position where they may need to rely on the TA for numbers

 

Tourniquet - dont get me wrong mate, I applaud all the servicemen and woman, TA or regulars and I say if you want to join go ahead and join the TA. However the TA guys need to understand there is a big difference between the TA routine and the regs routine.

 

My concern is that due to the goverment we will find a vast amount of servicemen serving in hostile environments who are not adequately trained. They already have enough to worry about with working many hours with out adequate sleep and insufficient equipment.

 

When I was serving completing operational tours I needed to know that all the guys around me had done what i had done and i could rely on them through thick and thin. Not sure I could feel like this about a TA guy, i would have my reservations. He would need to prove himself but not sure being thrown in to a hostal environment is the best place to learn when lives are at risk, no room for error.

 

In the regs you proff yourself through countless training exercises within your battalion. If you aint up to scatch, the other blokes in your platoon soon let you know and you either sort yourself out or you get moved. This method ensures the blokes you are with are on the top of their game, well this how it was in Para Reg.

[SupraAyf]

For some reason I was thinking you were saying the Toms were that shoit.... but the ruperts... well.....what does anyone really expect??? (Not diggin Ruperts either, just to much to learn not enough time to do it..)

 

 

 

My comments on the TA are non rank specific and if I was truely honest then I would have to question the existence of the TA in today’s military and operational society.

 

The whole TA concept evolved out of the collapse of the National Service system at the beginning of the 60's when the country decided that a reserve capability would be needed to supplement the regular mainstream forces. The TA guys would backfill the regular soldiers once they deployed and the TA fellows would remain in the peacetime locations and fill the gap - none of this frontline stuff was ever initially contemplated.

 

This is where things go tits up in terms of arguments for and against a TA capability.

 

I think the big question is do we (us, UK Taxpayer, UK MOD, Military) get value for money in terms of having a deployable TA operational capability. IMO (and for all of my mates), I would have to say no as the costs required to maintain the TA by far outreaches the operational return that the TA can deliver.

 

The concept of simply packing your bags and deploying for 6-9 months needs to be balanced against the integrity of the system requirements.

 

As an example but a TA Artillery Battery (167-guys in this case) deployed to Iraq a while back with dreadful consequences on operational capability for the Brigade that it supported. The Bty had poorly trained officers and a mix-match of SNCO's who were quite frankly a crock of $h!te. The soldiers/Gunners were initially well motivated as the whole deployment thing was new to them but this soon changed and in just over 2-months of deployed service, the numbers had reduced from 167 to 129 as a consequence of personal, fitness and motivation problems. This caused mega issues as the sub-unit was then deemed operational ineffective and the regulars had to trawl the deployed units in theater to gather up 20 guys to backfill the TA sub-unit.

 

On top of this but the TA boys that remained generated a massive administration burden insomuch as they complained about anything/everything during their tour. In line with Vaughney's accurate comments, the constant regular military ethos that soldiers become indoctrinated within does clone people in to becoming tough and resilient for such demanding scenarios - this was clearly not the case for this TA sub-unit and therefore the whole reputation of the TA in the Brigade suffered (on top of all the other problems with officers and seniors that they were experiencing).

 

There is also the issue of cost maintenance for the TA as a whole. Firstly, I don't suspect for one second that anyone has an idea of the massive chunk of the MOD budget that it takes to run the TA - what with the cost of regular training manpower; the actually cost and maintenance of the buildings and the allocation of military equipments and assets which are allocated to each pooled TA unit.

 

There is also the issue which personally upsets me and that is the financial burden incurred by the taxpayer for the deployment of a good number of TA guys.

 

I know of one guy called Jumbo who deployed as a Private-rank and where his main job spec was to make tea and drive a CO for 6-months. The sad thing is that no one could use his civilian skills to better effect due to lack of military training and experience (He was a British Airways senior 747 'Jumbo' Pilot Instructor As an example but a regular private soldiers wage would be 14k/annum on ops (7k for the 6-months) but he had to receive 65k for the 6-months as compensation for his normal civilian outlay.

 

A second example is that of a Royal Signals TA Captain who IMO had problems answering a mobile phone, never mind a comms system so he was left to his own devices for 6-months. This sounds bad I know but the regular guys were not aware that his regular London-City wage was 200K/annum so the MOD paid him 100K for the 6-montsh for doing feck-all (i.e. in compensation). If that had been the regular army then the MOD would have got 7 Captains for the price of him. This just doesn't make sense and it also goes to show the costs of TA service for some

 

I could go on all day but I genuinely don't think the TA is cost effective and IMO, the funds could be better placed in areas of critical deficiencies (that's for a different debate though).

[Andy-No-Knee]

My comments on the TA are non rank specific and if I was truely honest then I would have to question the existence of the TA in today’s military and operational society.

 

You say that now with more TA personell mobilised for 2 major fronts since 1945? (Ok, the amount has gone down I think it was 2004/5 that had the most TA personell mobilised but the fact still remains that TA are mobilised in far greater numbers than ever before).

 

Of course the military are beating potential recuits away as they are cluttering up the recruiting office doorways.... not. Due to the sever undermanning of the Armed Forces the only way that this amount of operational tempo has been achievied is by using the TA. There is just not the manpower in the Regs to not use them. The reasons way are many, least of all infectual management of soldiers and planning since the cold war ended, poor pay, poor housing, PAYD, less manpower means more duties etc so less time at home with familiy and loved ones etc... more regs leave and the circle continues.

 

 

The whole TA concept evolved out of the collapse of the National Service system at the beginning of the 60's when the country decided that a reserve capability would be needed to supplement the regular mainstream forces. The TA guys would backfill the regular soldiers once they deployed and the TA fellows would remain in the peacetime locations and fill the gap - none of this frontline stuff was ever initially contemplated.

 

 

Errrrr not quite. You may have missed it due to the wonderful advertisement but the TA is 100 years old this year.

The idea behind it stayed the same, through both WW's and through the cold war. It was only after the wall came down that there was a major rethink in the use of the TA. So much so that the Home Service Force was disbanded and the TA reduced in size.

Before that the TA's role was if the Third Shock Army came rolling down the plains was to move to a predetermind spot, dig in and die while giving the rest of the Army and NATO (mainly the Yanks) time to move thier main armies into a line ready for the counter attack after the standing armies and TA in Germany had stopped the Russian attack. Nothing to do with backfilling Reg units or providing BCR's.

 

This is where things go tits up in terms of arguments for and against a TA capability.

 

I think the big question is do we (us, UK Taxpayer, UK MOD, Military) get value for money in terms of having a deployable TA operational capability. IMO (and for all of my mates), I would have to say no as the costs required to maintain the TA by far outreaches the operational return that the TA can deliver.

 

 

Again, the higher command does not agree with you or your mates... The TA is actually better value for money than the Regulars are in some cases. No need to medical, NHS for that, dental - NHS, pentions - state one, housing, heating, feeding. If you look at it this way, Niew Arbrict spand out all this money on a regular Armed Forces with no return. So they start a couple of wars, give NO extra funding for it, in fact cut funding would be a better description, and then when the regulars start leaving and they cannot employ anyone to fill the gaps they use the reserves. That only cost when mobilised.

 

 

The concept of simply packing your bags and deploying for 6-9 months needs to be balanced against the integrity of the system requirements.

 

As an example but a TA Artillery Battery (167-guys in this case) deployed to Iraq a while back with dreadful consequences on operational capability for the Brigade that it supported. The Bty had poorly trained officers and a mix-match of SNCO's who were quite frankly a crock of $h!te. The soldiers/Gunners were initially well motivated as the whole deployment thing was new to them but this soon changed and in just over 2-months of deployed service, the numbers had reduced from 167 to 129 as a consequence of personal, fitness and motivation problems. This caused mega issues as the sub-unit was then deemed operational ineffective and the regulars had to trawl the deployed units in theater to gather up 20 guys to backfill the TA sub-unit.

 

On top of this but the TA boys that remained generated a massive administration burden insomuch as they complained about anything/everything during their tour. In line with Vaughney's accurate comments, the constant regular military ethos that soldiers become indoctrinated within does clone people in to becoming tough and resilient for such demanding scenarios - this was clearly not the case for this TA sub-unit and therefore the whole reputation of the TA in the Brigade suffered (on top of all the other problems with officers and seniors that they were experiencing).

 

There is also the issue of cost maintenance for the TA as a whole. Firstly, I don't suspect for one second that anyone has an idea of the massive chunk of the MOD budget that it takes to run the TA - what with the cost of regular training manpower; the actually cost and maintenance of the buildings and the allocation of military equipments and assets which are allocated to each pooled TA unit.

 

 

Yep that cost such a huge amount....not. They are far cheaper to run and administer than regular barracks, because they are not occupied 100% of the time.

 

 

There is also the issue which personally upsets me and that is the financial burden incurred by the taxpayer for the deployment of a good number of TA guys.

 

I know of one guy called Jumbo who deployed as a Private-rank and where his main job spec was to make tea and drive a CO for 6-months. The sad thing is that no one could use his civilian skills to better effect due to lack of military training and experience (He was a British Airways senior 747 'Jumbo' Pilot Instructor As an example but a regular private soldiers wage would be 14k/annum on ops (7k for the 6-months) but he had to receive 65k for the 6-months as compensation for his normal civilian outlay.

 

A second example is that of a Royal Signals TA Captain who IMO had problems answering a mobile phone, never mind a comms system so he was left to his own devices for 6-months. This sounds bad I know but the regular guys were not aware that his regular London-City wage was 200K/annum so the MOD paid him 100K for the 6-montsh for doing feck-all (i.e. in compensation). If that had been the regular army then the MOD would have got 7 Captains for the price of him. This just doesn't make sense and it also goes to show the costs of TA service for some

 

Right, so these darstedly TA soldiers, have given up thier real lives to go and help you undermaned lot out and then you want them to lose thier houses over it??? It isnt prison, if the Govt cant be bothered to make a regular soldiers remittance good enough so that they can fill the gaps and have to use the TA why should the TA soldier become out of pocket/face finacial hardship or ruin for 'doing thier bit'???

 

What a load of boll-arks!

 

 

I could go on all day but I genuinely don't think the TA is cost effective and IMO, the funds could be better placed in areas of critical deficiencies (that's for a different debate though).

 

Well, that could be why you are not CGS then. You are unable to see the bigger picture.

 

Talk about head in the sand attitude.

 

Well never mind.

 

The original question was answered some time ago and this is now decending into a slaggin match.

 

I have the utmost respect for the Regs, unfortunatly the Govt doesnt feel the same way. In an ideal world the TA would not be needed, but it isnt and they are. So maybe instead of whining like a big whiny thing you should look at ways of improving things rather that throwing the baby out with the bath water.

[DaveSupTT]

Hey guys!!

I have been keeping my eye on this thread and reading as and when people post, and id like to thank you all for your advise and comments.

There seems to be some definate varied views on the T.A. going around!! Its making a good read though! As Carlos said above, the original question has been answered in great detail and even though this is turning into a little debate, there is still some useful info coming out of it.

So feel free to continue and to talk about your experiences guys!!

[Vaughany]

DaveSupTT

 

As the originator of the post, dont be put off by joining the TA by mine or others comments mate. Likewise dont get caught up in all that macho rubbish about "You should deploy" if asked to either.

 

Im my experience a TA soldier is not as well trained as a regular soldier and do not put yourself at risk. This is the regs job and I think it is a sad state of affairs for the goverment to be asking part timers to go to war. They should make the regular job more attractive, look after the regulars better and maybe they would'nt be leaving in their droves.

 

With the current goverment, I would expect conscription next for all those 18 year olds who dont get the required grades for university.

[Andy-No-Knee]

I could not have put it better myself.

[Tourniquet]

As was stated earlier this isn't an ideal world at the moment and sadly or not depending your view the TA are needed but my question to the regs is this (just out of curiosity) If you guys were outnumbered or rather didn't have enough of you to do the job required as a few cases in 3 Para and Sniper One I read, would the TA be put in to support you then and if yes would this be better or worse for those involved ?

 

One reason I asked is because of a friend of mine sees a guy who serves in the US military through some tattoo thing he does and he mentioned to him that the guys in the US see our regs as a burden to them, not due to lack of skills but to lack of equipment and funding that they get. Where America seem to have a bottomless pit of cash we obviously don't. Again back to Sniper One, Sgt Dan Mills was saying it was a joy to have the Dutch with them because they had with them great weapons and superior fire power and once they pulled out they were back to basics and struggling.

 

I remember a L/C who did some of our weekends was saying they had to prove themselves to the regs once deployed and as TA recruits they even had to prove themselves to the 4 Para guys before they would even acknowledge them so it seems like a pecking order lol. I assume that any TA guy who excells or is obviously made for it would be asked to join the regs ?

 

As for what SupraArif was saying about compensation paid to pilots and bankers or whatever from civvy street then if that is true then I think that's disgusting and I can see why regs or anyone for that matter might resent them. I was under the impression though that due to the Reserve Forces Act, your job must be kept open for you while you are away and your wages paid. Is this not the case or has it changed ?

 

Carlos mate, chill lol. I see what the regs are saying, and I am on the TA side of the fence. I should maybe have got more of my facts straight before waiding in with what little tit bits I knew lol. Besides Im sure DaveTT didn't want to start WW3 between the TA and regs when he enquired for info lol.

 

One last question for Vaughany though - do you think a TA soldier would get the necessary training if the government wasn't putting such pressure on the regs and they had longer to do it - what I mean is, is your opinion due to the fact that they seem to be pushing them through quickly so they can get numbers out there so are not doing the amount you would in the regs or do you think the TA is just an easy way all round to get to play soldier. For example, time aside it takes, is 4 Para training and P Coy much easier than regular training and P Coy or is it just the time factor again leading to less experience etc ?

[Vaughany]

One last question for Vaughany though - do you think a TA soldier would get the necessary training if the government wasn't putting such pressure on the regs and they had longer to do it - what I mean is, is your opinion due to the fact that they seem to be pushing them through quickly so they can get numbers out there so are not doing the amount you would in the regs or do you think the TA is just an easy way all round to get to play soldier. For example, time aside it takes, is 4 Para training and P Coy much easier than regular training and P Coy or is it just the time factor again leading to less experience etc ?

 

Hello Tourniquet

 

I dont think the TA would get the same training under any circumstance due to the time required, when it is done in drib and drabs, it get watered down and is not as intense. When I was serving the TA were seen as part time and were not used really for operational tours or if they were, were more admin and not frontline.

 

I personally think the whole of the forces is being watered down, i feel this happened when they got rid of the individual depots. For my last 18 months I was a PTI in 2 Para, we use to run reception cadres for the guys that had just passed out. I was shocked how poor these were.

 

I feel the MOD have applied pressure to let guys pass out who are not as good as they should be. With the current climate of regular guys leaving the forces and the MOD under pressure to recruit, i can only see this problem getting worse, regular soldiers who are not really up for the task and TA soldiers who almost certaintly are not.

 

When i was serving 1989 - 1995, Toms had done usually done 5 or 6 years to get their first stripe and most full screws had served for 10 - 12 years. Correct me if i am wrong but I heard that alot of the soldiers today are at full screw/Sargent by 6 years.

 

As for the 4 Para guys doing a different or less difficult P Company that the guys from the regualr battalion, I cant comment. When I did P Company it was 10 events over 5 days based in Aldershot and Brecon. However P Company was the end result, if you got that far, the majority could/should pass. It was the 6 months hard training leading up to P Company that was the real test.

 

You had to contend through injuries from the persistent hard training, not being good enough in weapon drills/field craft etc, being back squadded, failing training exercises such as Advanced Wales. It was all of this that made the Parachute Regiment soldier elite, not just doing P Company

 

Hope this helps mate

[Andy-No-Knee]

 

As for what SupraArif was saying about compensation paid to pilots and bankers or whatever from civvy street then if that is true then I think that's disgusting and I can see why regs or anyone for that matter might resent them. I was under the impression though that due to the Reserve Forces Act, your job must be kept open for you while you are away and your wages paid. Is this not the case or has it changed ?

 

Carlos mate, chill lol. I see what the regs are saying, and I am on the TA side of the fence. I should maybe have got more of my facts straight before waiding in with what little tit bits I knew lol. Besides Im sure DaveTT didn't want to start WW3 between the TA and regs when he enquired for info lol.

 

One last question for Vaughany though - do you think a TA soldier would get the necessary training if the government wasn't putting such pressure on the regs and they had longer to do it - what I mean is, is your opinion due to the fact that they seem to be pushing them through quickly so they can get numbers out there so are not doing the amount you would in the regs or do you think the TA is just an easy way all round to get to play soldier. For example, time aside it takes, is 4 Para training and P Coy much easier than regular training and P Coy or is it just the time factor again leading to less experience etc ?

 

 

Under the RFA 1996 your job has to stay open to you and any short fall in wages, pention, private medical for family etc has to be paid not by your civi employer (although some banks in the city do this) but by the people who are compulsory mobilising you..ie the Govt!

 

If you volenteer for a tour you do so without any RFA protection which is why the term inteligent mobilistation came about. This is where a requirement for X number of TA soldier lands on the CO's desk. He then askes for 'volenteers', or people who would not mind going and then compulsory mobilisies them. That way they get the legal protection so they dont lose thier job, house etc for helping the country out.

 

Cos that is all it is... helping them out. No way can the TA be considered equal to the Regs, but it can depend apon individual units and soldier to how good they actually are.

 

As to the training gap, the olny way to improve the gap in skills is to follow the US National Guard system. When someone joins the National Guard they go off and do a full regular recruits course (12 weeks is the USMC one and that is the longest...pah! not even have way through joining the RM or Maroon Machine!) and then at the end get posted to a NG unit. All courses they attend are the full length regular ones not the watered down TA versions we have over here.

 

The reasons why the US can do that is they have alot of legal safeguards in place which we dont have. Like an empoly HAS to let the employee go and is not allowed to fire them while they are training (No such thing here), there are finacial returns and rewards for employers as well, a reduced tax burden on the company. If there was something like that here it would do wonders for recruitment and retention as empolyers would not be constantly on the backs of the TA soldier.

 

Also it helps that the US culture is pro military.

Thanks to the IRA and 30 years of bombings the military has been removed from the public eye in this country, you never used to be allowed to leave camp in uniform, had to have a civi top on if traveling in civi vehicles etc.

[Tourniquet]

Well Im certainly impressed mate. It sounds like just another thing in this country that just isn't how it used to be. I read 'Fighting For Queen And Country" by Nigel Ely who is ex Para and SAS and I remember the detail who went in to concerning traing from when he turned up day one to P Coy but it honestly never occured to me that it wouldn't be the same for TA. I must of ssumed that it was to come or something, I don't know.

 

Well it's great that we got some regs on here and Im over the moon there's Para's lol, I really admire them and wish I was a brick shite house too lol. i spoke to Stupra about it a while ago, he has 2 Para's badge as his avatar I noticed one day but I had no idea there were others.

 

I can appreciate the arguements everyone has put forward in this thread, but I think I'll leave it there for the time being. All the best everyone

 

Mark