THOR Racing Posted March 20, 2002 Share Posted March 20, 2002 >I assume this is the max psi available too you on 440cc injectors? Yes I'm still on 440's and that plus no large intercooler I'm playing safe. I hope to upgrade the IC this year and go for bigger injectors. It's a maximum that myself and many others feel is an acceptable limit on stock fueling, with good longevity of the engine and ancillaries (peripherals). My hybrids are capable of 2bar not that I'll see anywhere near that, engine will go pop before then I reckon! >I woud need to cange over to 550cc injectors if I run up to 26psi >right? Or do I require to go a bit bigger? Good grief! You'd better look into some serious engine and peripheral mods for 26psi. I don't think I've heard of anyone running 26psi. You can pretty much say 440cc injectors will give you 440BHP max and 550cc injectors will give you 550BHP. Now that is very very rough and should only be used as a guide. It's good for telling if someone is talking crap or not though. Like "My car is 600BHP" yeah right! on 440cc injectors? It might be what the individual components of the mod add up to but no where near what you'd get in reality when they all interact. >Also what happens to the stock fuel map in our computer? I heard it >is functional only upto about 19psi?Do we need to get a fuel >computer and tune it? Yes the stock MAP sensor will max out at about 19psi. BUT!!!! even before then the ECU is only fueling to the fuel cut level of 15psi. The fuel cut controller has prevented it from knowing any different. Luckily the Supra has plenty of fuel at 15psi to be able to use the extra for more power. To be safe (like I always am) you always need to balance the equation and replace the cooling loss (as you're burning the fuel that was used for cooling to give more power) with another mechanism. Such mechanisms are water injection or a large volume high efficiency intercooler. The hybrid turbos not only flow more air which is great but MORE importantly they are more efficient at higher boost and therefore do NOT create as much heat for the equivalent stock turbo. As I said before in earlier posts the harder you push your stock turbos the more inefficient they become until eventually you actually get a drop in performance as the high boost creates too much heat which your current configuration (of fuel and intercooler) cannot remove and hence you start to starve the engine of fuel and soon knock will occur and damage to the engine. >as far as I'm aware Pete hasn't either. No I haven't dynoed my hybrids either. But I do know I was producing 300 RWHP on stock turbos at 18psi with 440cc injectors and that my hybrids produce the same acceleration at much lower boost (15psi). So now at 18psi it's a little rocket, ask Chris Rocks or Darrell Payne :-) It can still go quicker but my limiting factors are crappy intercooler and lack of extra fuel. I'll do the intercooler first and then I can go a little higher and then add 550cc's and push it even further. Even then I think I'll only be looking at 22psi. This will of course all be down with a wideband O2 Air Fuel Ratio Meter Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randy Posted March 20, 2002 Share Posted March 20, 2002 Thanks a lot Pete for explaining so much! So I would most definately need a air fuel computer to take care of the extra boost! Also the 550cc should be enough for the extra boost of the hybrids? Right! Will the HKS TYPE-S Intercooler be good enough to handle the extra cooling required. One last and important question- Is it difficult to tune a Air Fuel Computer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark brown Posted March 20, 2002 Share Posted March 20, 2002 Running 26 psi is possible on hybrids (Turbo Dynamics fitted to mine)as I'm doing that and a little more on occasion, but as has been said the mods you need are extensive. 550cc injectors and and additional fuel injector kit, in which I'm running 2 grey Bosch injectors. Also I'm running the Blitz ECU which has a different maps to standard, no fuel cut and a much richer fuel map and different ignition map. Car has been running this spec for 18 months without problems but I do treat it with respect and do not hold high boost pressures for sustained periods. Air temperature sensor pre and post intercooler show that even at 2 bar charge temperature is remaining stable.Beware if you keep it nailed at these boost pressures I am sure it will self destruct. Full spec below: Mark Brown J spec auto Blitz NUR spec No cats Turbo Dynamics Hybrid turbos Blitz FMIC Blitz Dump Valve Blitz ECU HKS 256 inlet & exhaust cams and adjustable pulleys TDI uprated Fuel pump HKS Additional injector kit ERL water injection 550cc Injectors Apexi AFC 100 BHP Nitrous kit HKS Oil cooler kit Blitz Dual solenoid boost controller Blitz Turbo Timer AP 6 pot front calipers & braided hoses all round (Panasport racing 18" wheels fit over the calipers, just) Eibach springs Boost gauge, Air FuelMeter/Wide band lambda, EGT gauge, Dual channel air intake temperature monitor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted March 20, 2002 Share Posted March 20, 2002 Mark I just have to say...Your Barsteward! Quality spec list! Could you Private mail me about the AIC...I'd like to know about its installation and operation...if you can...I've been thinking about using my old 440's in it when I replace them or just getting 8 550's... Sorry if this diverts the thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randy Posted March 21, 2002 Share Posted March 21, 2002 Quote: from mark brown on 11:41 pm on Mar. 22, 2002[br]Running 26 psi is possible on hybrids (Turbo Dynamics fitted to mine)as I'm doing that and a little more on occasion, but as has been said the mods you need are extensive. 550cc injectors and and additional fuel injector kit, in which I'm running 2 grey Bosch injectors. Also I'm running the Blitz ECU which has a different maps to standard, no fuel cut and a much richer fuel map and different ignition map. Car has been running this spec for 18 months without problems but I do treat it with respect and do not hold high boost pressures for sustained periods. Air temperature sensor pre and post intercooler show that even at 2 bar charge temperature is remaining stable.Beware if you keep it nailed at these boost pressures I am sure it will self destruct. Full spec below: Mark Brown J spec auto Blitz NUR spec No cats Turbo Dynamics Hybrid turbos Blitz FMIC Blitz Dump Valve Blitz ECU HKS 256 inlet & exhaust cams and adjustable pulleys TDI uprated Fuel pump HKS Additional injector kit ERL water injection 550cc Injectors Apexi AFC 100 BHP Nitrous kit HKS Oil cooler kit Blitz Dual solenoid boost controller Blitz Turbo Timer AP 6 pot front calipers & braided hoses all round (Panasport racing 18" wheels fit over the calipers, just) Eibach springs Boost gauge, Air FuelMeter/Wide band lambda, EGT gauge, Dual channel air intake temperature monitor Mark, Very impressive list of upgrades!! How are the 6piston AP holding? With the Blitz ECU you dont need to do a fuel air computer right! Also you are using the water injection even though you have a FMIC. Is this necessary? What sort of response is there from your hybrid turbos~compared to stock turbos run at 18psi? Is the torque a lot stronger? Enough power to cream a new 911 turbo?:biggrin: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOR Racing Posted March 21, 2002 Share Posted March 21, 2002 >So I would most definately need a air fuel computer to take care of >the extra boost! Only if you have bigger injectors and need to setup fueling. Using an AFC with stock injectors is a bit of a waste. >Also the 550cc should be enough for the extra >boost of the hybrids? Right! Like anything up to a point. You always push the car to the limit of safe fueling. At 26psi I might have to take the advice of others and suggest even bigger injectors or additional injectors in the inlet manifold. BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT!!!!!!! I no longer know how the car reacts in closed loop to these larger injectors. I do know that with 550cc injectors on a Jap spec car the ECU can re-learn the fueling for closed loop operation (cruising and off boost) and an additional injector bank will have no effect here (as they are only switched on at high boost) If you fit >550cc I am unsure the ECU is able to adjust it's closed loop control enough and you may get cylinder bore wash as you have excessive fuel which the ECU cannot lean off. (The AFC will NOT help you here. It is only used for open-loop control, ie. on boost) >Will the HKS TYPE-S Intercooler be good >enough to handle the extra cooling required. Yes, or the Type-R >Is it difficult to tune a Air Fuel Computer? I'd only do it on a rolling road or actually on the road but with a wideband Air Fuel Ratio meter fitted to measure the actual oxygen content (and therefore amount of unburnt fuel) Mark, At 26psi what 1/4 mile times do you get and at what terminal velocity? I always like 1/4 miles times rather than BHP. Regards Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badtoy Posted March 21, 2002 Author Share Posted March 21, 2002 just got the latest information of Leon Green and his hyprid turbos. --------------------------------------------------------------------------Stage 1 10% more power over stock. Stage 2 20 % more power over stock. Stage 3 30% more power over stock. Turn around time usually one week. Turbo's are very good units, they run on Garrett internals. I have MKiv Supras running 500+ h/p also running 1.7 bar with no problems. I take it you have your fuelling sorted?.. I would recommend the Stage 3 as many have upgraded later to the stage 3 anyway. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- (Edited by badtoy at 7:41 am on Mar. 21, 2002) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randy Posted March 21, 2002 Share Posted March 21, 2002 Thanks badtoy! I have't yet e-mailed him. What sort of fuel upgrade is he recomending with a stage3 upgrade? Will this require larger than 550's and we need a upgraded fuel pump. right! Anything else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badtoy Posted March 21, 2002 Author Share Posted March 21, 2002 I have a sard fpr with a gss341 and set the fuel pressure to 66 psi at the top. In combination with 550cc is this good enough for about 540 hp. after that we have 2 diffrent possibilities. 1. we upgrade the injectors with 720cc with a greddy fuel line and install a 2nd fuelline and a 2nd gss341 (I prefere that) 2. you buy the hks aic kit and work with one ore 2 additional injectors. advantage: you will pass the emission test with a catalyst without problems. with the bigger injectors there is no possibility to do that. if you would like to do your own calculation go and visite www.rceng.com and check out the worksheet. markus (Edited by badtoy at 2:51 pm on Mar. 21, 2002) (Edited by badtoy at 2:52 pm on Mar. 21, 2002) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mac Posted March 21, 2002 Share Posted March 21, 2002 @badtoy are the hybrids not like our stock euro spec turbos? cu mac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badtoy Posted March 21, 2002 Author Share Posted March 21, 2002 no on stage 3 they have garrett racing internals, good enough for "save" 26 psi with a good tuning. If I will do that, I will go and rebuild my head too and increase the compression ratio to 8,9:1. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randy Posted March 21, 2002 Share Posted March 21, 2002 Quote: from badtoy on 5:50 pm on Mar. 23, 2002[br]I have a sard fpr with a gss341 and set the fuel pressure to 66 psi at the top. Sorry dude! what is gss 341? How do you check the fuel pressure? In combination with 550cc is this good enough for about 540 hp. after that we have 2 diffrent possibilities. So if I were running 24psi will the stock computer take care of the additional boost and supply enough fuel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted March 21, 2002 Share Posted March 21, 2002 The stock ECU wil only fuel you PROPERLY up to 15psi...after that you really need a fuel computer or a totally remapped aftermarket ecu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Martin F Posted March 21, 2002 Share Posted March 21, 2002 Quote: from badtoy on 2:50 pm on Mar. 21, 2002[br]I have a sard fpr with a gss341 and set the fuel pressure to 66 psi at the top. In combination with 550cc is this good enough for about 540 hp. Fuel pressure is not directly related to how much horsepower you are generating, it is more related to what manifold pressure (i.e. boost) you are using to obtain that horsepower. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark brown Posted March 21, 2002 Share Posted March 21, 2002 Randy AP 6 pots holding up fine, but calipers need to be serviced annually, race calipers on a road vehicle,the seals etc are not waether protected adequately. The Blitz ECU fitted to my car is for 440cc injectors so wiyth 550cc injectors the AFC is needed to lean off the mixture at low throttle openings as it is running far too rich. I think I am fortunate that the Blitz ECU maps match my spec quite well, more luck than judgement though I think Mark Brown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randy Posted March 22, 2002 Share Posted March 22, 2002 Quote: from mark brown on 11:18 pm on Mar. 23, 2002[br]Randy AP 6 pots holding up fine, but calipers need to be serviced annually, race calipers on a road vehicle,the seals etc are not waether protected adequately. Cool! The Blitz ECU fitted to my car is for 440cc injectors so wiyth 550cc injectors the AFC is needed to lean off the mixture at low throttle openings as it is running far too rich. If you don't mind! How much did you pay for the Blitz ECU? and can you get it specific to what you are running on your car eg.. 550cc with fpr/high performance fuel pump. So you dont have to run a fuel computer. Can this be reprogramed again later if you upgrade to 720cc injectors? Lastly is it worth upgrading your ECU? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badtoy Posted March 22, 2002 Author Share Posted March 22, 2002 @randy, I have a nato spec, thats the same as a uk spec. there are already 550cc in place from stock. the injectors works on impulses open close open close and so on. if you have more fuelpressure you will have more fuel in the chambers, but there is a restriction with the brake specific fuel consumption. as I said check the http://www.rceng.com/technical.htm#WORKSHEET and calculate your own values. the sard fpr is conected at the same vacuum line than the stock fpr and yes of course the fp is related on manifold pressure. but the sard is adjustable up to 90 psi. as today I run at the last 40t km at 20-22 psi always like a sick without any problem. gss341 = walbro fuelpump Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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