Guest Terry S Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 Chris, the Mocal stuff is cool. Most people oil cooler kits are Mocal, and most here get them from Think Automotive. CJ, yes mate I would be looking at a better filter. I am pretty sure that Mohd, did a tech some time back on MKIV.com on the filters. The LS400 ones are OK for a cheap fix, but will not fit in the stock position if you have an oil cooler sandwich plate fitted. Because of the thread we have we are pretty limited to which filters we can use. I have a SARD one on mine which is supposed to be free flowing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terry S Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 This is from Derek O'Banion's site MKIV Supra Streamlined Oiling Upgrade The idea behind this is to remove and therefore bypass the stock oil filter bracket, and oil cooler, and also allow the use of larger, higher flowing oil filters. Stock Problems: The inside of the stock oil cooler is not a free flowing design, rather the oil must flow through some very small passages. The oil must pass through two separate hollow bolts, with only a few 1/8” holes to pass through. The stock oil filter is rather small, being only about 3” diameter and 3” tall. The oil has to make several abrupt turns within the bracket and cooler. See the parts here: Stock oil filter bracket and cooler FMS Failures: The MKIV Supra has a problem with blowing the FMS (front main seal). Consider that the oil at that point in the system is after the oil pump, but before the oil filter bracket, cooler, and filter. Therefore, any pressure drop from resistance at the bracket, cooler, and filter will result in two things. Oil pressure in the main galleys that supply the crankshaft and rods will be less. Oil pressure at the FMS will be raised, possibly significantly. This is a main contributor to FMS failures. So far the approach has been to strengthen the seal with a aftermarket replacement. Why not treat the problem directly? Remove the backpressure from the system (bracket, cooler, small filter), and the tendency for FMS failures will be drastically reduced, AND you will have more oil pressure where you want it. What the Upgrade Is: A threaded adapter that screws directly into the side of the engine block, after the stock bracket and cooler are removed. You can then use any number of much larger than stock oil filters (any in the most common 3/4x16 thread), and screw right onto the engine block. It looks like this: Installed Filter Thought it may help some understand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 Thanks Terry I am talking to adam at the moment about oil and transmition cooling and will see what is available that encompasses a relocation kit too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve W2 Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 This is from Derek O'Banion's site MKIV Supra Streamlined Oiling Upgrade FMS Failures: The MKIV Supra has a problem with blowing the FMS (front main seal). Consider that the oil at that point in the system is after the oil pump, but before the oil filter bracket, cooler, and filter. Therefore, any pressure drop from resistance at the bracket, cooler, and filter will result in two things. Oil pressure in the main galleys that supply the crankshaft and rods will be less. Oil pressure at the FMS will be raised, possibly significantly. This is a main contributor to FMS failures. So far the approach has been to strengthen the seal with a aftermarket replacement. Why not treat the problem directly? Remove the backpressure from the system (bracket, cooler, small filter), and the tendency for FMS failures will be drastically reduced, AND you will have more oil pressure where you want it. Thought it may help some understand I'm confused. Not that i'm looking at buying one but just interested to learn about some of this stuff. Am I right in saying that the FMS seal is the problem as it gives way due to excess pressure. This is a back pressure caused by the bracket, cooler and filter downstream of the FMS. This is where i get confused, if you make the downstream components more free flowing, therefore moving most of the restriction and reducing the back pressure, aren't you increasing the effective pressure on the FMS? To explain: If the inlet pressure to the FMS is 10 Bar (for example) and the downstream back pressure caused by the (restrictive) stock system is 4 bar (for example), the effective pressure on the seal is the differential of 6 Bar. Once you change to an aftermarket free flowing system designed to reduce the FMS downstream back pressure to say 1 Bar (another example ) the effective pressure on the inlet to the FMS is now 9 Bar. Higher than before, but it stops the seal from blowing beacuse of the reduced pressure Sorry if I've totally missed the point here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Usmann A Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 Since we are talking FMS here. Yes, but you have to think of the filter/oil cooler asembly as being a restirction within the system, thus increaceing the backpressure onto the seal. Causing it to go above its LDP. These motors make excessive oil pressure, over 100psi at WOT on some, and in order tackle this buildup we have to find some way in order to relive the system, that is why the oil cooler/filter is seen as a restriction.(because the motor is building up alot of oil pressure at high RPMs or when the oil is cold and the user is stupid) Have you ever looked inside the cooler, no wonder why the oil has too flow through some real bad angled 1/8 holes. Some people try and bore the hole of the return on the pump to relive the FMS of pressure. Or what Derek advises seems to be good. Awhile back SP bought out new Seals, some had some good luck with them. HTH if I have had a mistake on some points, it due to much needed slumber. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve W2 Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 Since we are talking FMS here. Yes, but you have to think of the filter/oil cooler asembly as being a restirction within the system, thus increaceing the backpressure onto the seal. Causing it to go above its LDP. These motors make excessive oil pressure, over 100psi at WOT on some, and in order tackle this buildup we have to find some way in order to relive the system, that is why the oil cooler/filter is seen as a restriction.(because the motor is building up alot of oil pressure at high RPMs or when the oil is cold and the user is stupid) Have you ever looked inside the cooler, no wonder why the oil has too flow through some real bad angled 1/8 holes. Some people try and bore the hole of the return on the pump to relive the FMS of pressure. Or what Derek advises seems to be good. Awhile back SP bought out new Seals, some had some good luck with them. HTH if I have had a mistake on some points, it due to much needed slumber. Assuming the restriction stays fixed the differential pressure over the FMS would stay fixed to. Despite the fact the that upstream pressure may increase at high RPM's. My point was that the FMS has to be subjected to a higher pressure when it has no back pressure. The worts case being at high RPM obviously. The effective FMS pressure is the upstream pressure minus the back pressure caused by the downstream resrtiction. From my previous post you can see that the effective pressure on the FMS will increase if the back pressure is reduced (i.e. restrictions are moved). I take the point that when the restrictions are moved the system will flow more oil for the same pressure, and that this may be a requirement for a highly tuned engine, but the problem was highlted as being the FMS integrity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terry S Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 No there are a series of problems, including lesser feed to the squirters on the bottoms of the Pistons. The area around the FMS is particularly prone to increased pressure caused by the restrictive filter set up. As you say high RPM compound the problem. We have a few fixes for the FMS issue, inc. modifying the pump. I really dont wish to get into a long winded why & wherefore in this thread. I & others have experienced these problems, and hopefully overcome them. I dont sell anything for the oil system, so have nothing to gain from saying the system needs mods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve W2 Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 No there are a series of problems, including lesser feed to the squirters on the bottoms of the Pistons. The area around the FMS is particularly prone to increased pressure caused by the restrictive filter set up. As you say high RPM compound the problem. We have a few fixes for the FMS issue, inc. modifying the pump. I really dont wish to get into a long winded why & wherefore in this thread. I & others have experienced these problems, and hopefully overcome them. I dont sell anything for the oil system, so have nothing to gain from saying the system needs mods. Terry, don't get me wrong. I wasn't questioning the integrity of your system/solution to the problem over anyone else's. I merely saw some information being posted that I didn't understand and asked a question. Obviously, if I have a question of a technical nature in the future or don't understand the way your products work I will have to ask someone else. It is in Supra Chat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terry S Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 Understand that Steve, and not a problem. For clarity, the later info in the thread was to put to bed any inference that I had spurious motives for suggesting a re-engineered filter system. I would gladly chat through the entire system sometime over a beer mate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve W2 Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 Understand that Steve, and not a problem. For clarity, the later info in the thread was to put to bed any inference that I had spurious motives for suggesting a re-engineered filter system. I would gladly chat through the entire system sometime over a beer mate. Okay mate, I will be quiet now. May hold you to the beer though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terry S Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 Look forward to it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonB Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 All this stuff about bigger filters etc to avoid FMS problems is very interesting, but the original question was "are filter relocation kits bad?". And what we are all saying (I think) is that provided the hose connections are OK so they don't leak they aren't, compared to the stock setup anyway. The extra hosing is not going to be a new restriction as the main restriction is the filter and mount themselves, which are the same for stock and with a relocation kit. The other stuff is to do with improving over the stock system by fitting bigger filters etc and not really much to do with relocation kits. Is that a fair summary? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve W2 Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 All this stuff about bigger filters etc to avoid FMS problems is very interesting, but the original question was "are filter relocation kits bad?". And what we are all saying (I think) is that provided the hose connections are OK so they don't leak they aren't, compared to the stock setup anyway. The extra hosing is not going to be a new restriction as the main restriction is the filter and mount themselves, which are the same for stock and with a relocation kit. The other stuff is to do with improving over the stock system by fitting bigger filters etc and not really much to do with relocation kits. Is that a fair summary? Eurika!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonball Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 Seems fair enough summary - as you say the refernce to FMS is interesting and there are loads of references to FMS problems etc here which might be interesting to the tech articles section Consensus seems to be that although not exclusively for high powered and BPU++++ cars - these are the ones affected in the main Also - loads of other good suggestions such as oil choice / revving / warming / porting / also having an oil pressure gauge on the sump to ensure that excess figures aren't achieved etc! http://www.mkiv.com/tmp/front_crank_main_seal_new/ http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=165069&highlight=front+main+seals http://www.to4r.com/techarticle.php?id=2 http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=165069&perpage=25&highlight=front main seals&pagenumber=4 Picture http://www.mkiv.com/techarticles/parts/upgraded_timing_plate/dsc01086.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 Any opinions on the HKS oil cooler kit that includes filter relocation? http://www.hks-power.co.jp/products/cooling/oilcooler/oilcooler.html -Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRD3000GT Posted February 17, 2005 Author Share Posted February 17, 2005 Had a look at them. Seem to be a much more substancial piece of kit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 Any opinions on the HKS oil cooler kit that includes filter relocation? http://www.hks-power.co.jp/products/cooling/oilcooler/oilcooler.html -Ian I've got one fitted, it err.... cools my oil.... relocates my filter.... and looks sat inside nearside hole in front bumper. I've been searching for info, but there is very little on the web, I think it is mainly sold to the Japanese domestic market, as there seem to be very few places selling them. If I find out anymore info on the kit I'll post here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonball Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 Had a look at them. Seem to be a much more substancial piece of kit. Apart from the £300+ price tag for the name! Talk to me m8 - I feel we can work on a kit for you well within that price range! We can talk Laminova coolers for that kind of money! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digsy Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 Reading this with interest. Just a couple of questions 1) Does the Supra oil oump not have a small drilling from just behind the front crank seal straight into the oil pan? This is quite a common feature on OEM pumps, specifically to relieve pressure behind the seal if you get excess oil leakage into this area from the rotor. 2) Does the Supra oil pump pressure relief valve sense the oil pressure between the rotor output and the filter or does it sense the main block gallery oil pressure directly? Is it the recirculating type or the a nasty "dump to oil pan" one? If anyone can post up a schematic of the lube system it would be helpful. Cheers, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syed Shah Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 We can talk Laminova coolers for that kind of money! Why would you want to put further workload on the cooling system? Surely dumping all that heat to the air is far better than into the coolant? Especially since the radiator in our cars has a hard time already, given it is usually masked off by a big intercooler. For relocation kits affecting the FMS, perhaps I have missed the point, but how? According to Derek's site, it is not going to be the biggest restriction anyway, even the poorer designs, so surely a not issue, until you relieve more restictive piece. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonball Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 No I'm not - it was just that the cost of an air cooled system such as the HKS appeared excessive - Laminova pricing etc Although I wonder how the oil temps compare with tranny temps - which we expct the rad to deal with! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terry S Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 The GReddy one is shite. A properly done one is a great idea. The last thing you want to do is create more of a restriction. Relocation would be a good chance to engineer a bigger filter in. Maybe I'll get around to putting a kit together one day. Think I said it all in my first post really. As for FMS being only a BPU+++ issue that is BS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 As for FMS being only a BPU+++ issue that is BS. You're not wrong Terry, had to change the FMS 3 times on my old very mildly modded engine in the space of a few months It was suspected that worn cylinders/rings were resulting in back pressure into the crank case. Engine rebuild with new short block sorted the problem at a price! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 Nic...did you get my email? Your PM box was full Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 Nic...did you get my email? Your PM box was full Yes I did thanks, PM box now emptied. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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