Quantum physics

[tbourner]

Anyone know anything about the LHC?

I've only read that most well known of scientific journals; wikipedia! So I don't know a lot, except that it's pretty interesting stuff.

 

Is it anything to do with zero point energy? Again, my research is limited, and I haven't seen the recent stuff. Are there still 2 theories saying it could have near infinite energy or it could have next to useless energy levels?

 

So, here's what's in my head: In the vaccuum of space, there is nothing as far as we can see, but there is actually some stuff, some matter and anti-matter that has come together to form this new kind of matter that we can't see. The LHC shoves some atomic bits together at high speed creating massive energy enough to pull the matter and anti-matter apart so we can see it. This is similar to what happened atto-seconds after the big bang except then the power was so immense that the bits didn't have time to regroup and so the universe was born.

 

So if that's right, isn't this a dangerous experiment? What if the invisible bits of matter and what we call anti-matter are in some other dimension when they come together, and that's where zero point energy comes from, and setting it loose opens the gate to a flood of energy or something!!!

 

 

OK, I guess I'm very wrong, so let's hear your thoughts.

[DamanC]

Trev, would you be a dear and post this later in the week when its not monday morning?

[tbourner]

I was thinking about it yesterday whilst painting the fences in the garden!!!

 

I can bump it in a few days for you.

[Dragonball]

I was thinking about it yesterday whilst painting the fences in the garden!!!

 

I can bump it in a few days for you.

 

All that dark matter in the garden...

 

 

 

... normally goes on the compost heap

[Al Massey]

zero point energy is still all theory and i doubt we have the technology to even try extracting energy from different dimmensions

all weve been able to do is hypothosise on the many theories out there regarding zpe or free energy

[Lbm]

Trev, would you be a dear and post this later in the week when its not monday morning?

 

 

However, I too have nothing to add to your theory

[Supranature]

Dont know if its still available on BBCi player, but something along the lines of this was discussed on episode 666 of The Sky at Night.

[RiceRocket]

Anyone know anything about the LHC?

 

Isn't it meant to recreate the split second moments after the Big Bang?

Apparently there's a small chance of black holes being created *gulp* but they're suppose to die out pretty instantaneously.

 

When are they switching it on?

[chilli]

when you say LHC are you talking Large Hadron Collider?

[Darren-K]

So, here's what's in my head: In the vaccuum of space, there is nothing as far as we can see,

well kind of,.theres is around 1 molecule of matter per square meter in the void of space,there is friction in space but so small its almost immeasurable.

So if that's right, isn't this a dangerous experiment? What if the invisible bits of matter and what we call anti-matter are in some other dimension when they come together, and that's where zero point energy comes from, and setting it loose opens the gate to a flood of energy or something!!!

Well the LHC is the first accelerator of this size,tho not the first accelerator,there is quite a few smaller ones,in Netherlands ,Spain,France and many others all over the world - so they kind of know what there doing,and half know what to expect,.

thing is the particles there dealing with are so small the results will be just as small,in fact so small that the results will be hardly be noticeable let alone measurable- however it is possible that once the experiments start they will get results from experiments IN THE FUTURE !

they are actualy dealing with matter in time & space.,and as thus they theoreticaly could see the results from experiments they do in 30 years from now. honest !

[tbourner]

Chilli, yep, Large Hadron Collider (in Geneva?).

 

Aren't they already planning an even bigger accelerator to do more experiments on whatever they find with the LHC?

 

Some impressive numbers on it though; the magnets have to be cooled with liquid helium to approximately -271 degrees C, or 2 Kelvin. Bare in mind that absolute zero is 0 K or -273.16 degrees C!!!!

The impact point may reach temperatures of several trillions of degrees C!!!!!!!!!!!!

The 27Km ring will be completed by the electron beam 11000 times a second!!!!!!!!

 

So that ZPE thing? We think absolute zero is where all energy is dead and every atom stops moving? So if there's energy of some kind in there we don't really know it's potential, the thing I remember is someone on TV saying a cup of ZPE would be enough to power the entire Earth for thousands of years!! Can't be a good thing releasing it if we're not sure!!!

[chilli]

ZPE is the ground state of a quantum system - it's not to do with atoms that have stopped moving (that's actually absolute zero temperature).

 

accelerators like this mostly mash large hadrons - oh wait lol, mash hadrons in a large accelerator in order to experiment at higher energy levels - i.e. at conditions closer to the big bang and the start of the universe.

 

one of the key ideas is symmetry and spontaneous symmetry breaking, such as that of the Weak force and W and Z Bosons.

 

In search of unified theories and the GUT, scientists hope that they will further unit forces and particles at ever higher energies, revealing the true nature and relationship between the myriad of particles and the forces of the universe - or something like that

 

so, bigger and larger accelerators will continue to be built - perhaps until one day we go up in a puff of smoke

[RiceRocket]

Doubt we'll be seeing ZPE (just in Stargate universe for now) for decades/centuries as we can't even master fusion yet.

[chilli]

Doubt we'll be seeing ZPE (just in Stargate universe for now) for decades/centuries as we can't even master fusion yet.

 

I think you guys are talking about a different ZPE from me, or is it something in Sci-Fi stories?

 

can't even master Fusion, you say that like it's easy lol - fusion can be started, containment is the problem isn't it - I'd rather they took their time and got the containment right before selling the design to countries with large populations looking for cheap sources of energy, regardless of safety lol

[Al Massey]

Doubt we'll be seeing ZPE (just in Stargate universe for now) for decades/centuries as we can't even master fusion yet.

 

in stargate they talk about a zero point module(ZPM), which is just a device that is used to extract ZPE from another dimension,

well it actually bridges all dimensions and takes molecules from each dimension without causing blackholes as it replaces each dark matter with anti matter on the two way bridge

[Al Massey]

I think you guys are talking about a different ZPE from me, or is it something in Sci-Fi stories?

 

can't even master Fusion, you say that like it's easy lol - fusion can be started, containment is the problem isn't it - I'd rather they took their time and got the containment right before selling the design to countries with large populations looking for cheap sources of energy, regardless of safety lol

 

but we wouldnt need to master fusion before we could master ZPE, as they are totally different ways of extracting energy,

 

and its not just containment that is an issue, its keeping fusion going for a prolongued period

[chilli]

but we wouldnt need to master fusion before we could master ZPE, as they are totally different ways of extracting energy,

 

but if ZPE as an energy source is made up, that's kinda accademic lol - are you saying it's real? If so can someone explain to me how it works

 

and its not just containment that is an issue, its keeping fusion going for a prolongued period

 

well, actually as far as I understand it, those problems are related - you can't keep it going if you can't contain it properly. It's the latter that's the problem to solve, keeping it going is not the core issue, luckily the Sun does a good job of that too but it uses lots of space around it and immense gravity to contain it lol

[Al Massey]

but if ZPE as an energy source is made up, that's kinda accademic lol - are you saying it's real? If so can someone explain to me how it works

 

 

 

well, actually as far as I understand it, those problems are related - you can't keep it going if you can't contain it properly. It's the latter that's the problem to solve, keeping it going is not the core issue, luckily the Sun does a good job of that too but it uses lots of space around it and immense gravity to contain it lol

 

as far as i can remember the sun works because the pressure trying to explode outwards and the gravity tyring to keep it in and its a vital balance between the two,

so really to keep fusion going, it cant be contained in our conventional methods

 

and how do we know if ZPE is real or not, as i said earlier its all theory and hypothosies at the moment

[chilli]

as far as i can remember the sun works because the pressure trying to explode outwards and the gravity tyring to keep it in and its a vital balance between the two,

so really to keep fusion going, it cant be contained in our conventional methods

 

fusion can be started using high power lasers but because there is no easy way to contain it, it can't be sustained - I remember doing one of my uni projects on it but it was a while ago, I guess things may have changed and maybe I forgot the details.

 

and how do we know if ZPE is real or not, as i said earlier its all theory and hypothosies at the moment

 

yeah but the point I'm making is ZPE has a real meaning in physics, is there a real theory for extracting vast energy (that isn't crackpot) and if so how is it supposed to work, in theory?

[chilli]

just to add, if you read this you will be better equipped to discuss it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_fusion - Inertial confinement is the actual type I studied back then, I remember that much.

 

Sustaining a reaction is exactly what happens in a thermonuclear bomb (h-bomb) which uses fission to start a fusion reaction - but there is no confinement so the thing blows itself apart - in a way like a supernova does to a star (analogy - not the same process).

 

Yes a star burns because gravity keeps the thing together (provides confinement). Ironically the larger the star the quicker it burns out, gravity is higher and the thing burns hotter and runs out of fuel quicker

[tbourner]

I think you guys are talking about a different ZPE from me, or is it something in Sci-Fi stories?

I'm not

in stargate they talk about a zero point module(ZPM), which is just a device that is used to extract ZPE from another dimension,

well it actually bridges all dimensions and takes molecules from each dimension without causing blackholes as it replaces each dark matter with anti matter on the two way bridge

Ooh I didn't know that, maybe I should write sci-fi!!!

 

I just came up with it in my head, like maybe when matter and anti-matter collide they destroy themselves as far as we're concerned, but it's not really anti-matter that's just our name for it, it's actually some other kind of material that causes the matter to change into something we don't understand (maybe another dimension, maybe just something in our dimension we can't see), so we think there's nothing there but really there is, and it's in everything (like ZPE), and if we knew what it was or what was holding the matter and 'anti-matter' together we could break it apart and get the energy out.

Or something like that!

So what is ZPE then? I thought it was some energy that was in everything, and still exists at absolute zero (hence the name) where everything else we know of has stopped, which suggests it would be pretty powerful to harness!

[chilli]

well ZPE is the minimum energy state in a quantum system - I'm not aware of any other meaning for it, but there might be.

 

Matter and antimatter, when they come together they release energy, conversely creation of matter requires energy - the old mass-energy relationship. If matter could be turned into energy whole sale then that would be a whole lot of energy for not a lot of matter - I don't want to be around the day that experiment is performed lol!

 

there is energy in everything, matter has energy regardless of it's quantum state (e.g. ZPE) or temperature (e.g. absolute zero) - I'm not sure if I am misunderstanding you or we have our wires crossed somewhere.

 

the idea of particle - antiparticle pairs is that they are constantly being created and destroyed (net energy level is zero) in the quantum 'foam' as people refer to it - I think maybe this is what you're referring too. I'm not sure you could release energy from it since it's an equilibrium that exists because it's undisturbed - to disturb it you'd have to put energy in - probably at least as much as you'd get out - but who knows, maybe there is a way!

 

at the edge of black holes the particle antiparticles are meant to be torn apart, one going into the black hole, the other appearing to radiate away, making black holes not actually black - this effect is meant to result in black holes 'evaporating' over time until they disappear, which is an interesting idea.

[tbourner]

there is energy in everything, matter has energy regardless of it's quantum state (e.g. ZPE) or temperature (e.g. absolute zero) - I'm not sure if I am misunderstanding you or we have our wires crossed somewhere.

 

You're probably misunderstanding me, but that's probably because I'm not making any sense!!! Well I am but I'm not making scientific sense, just wierd Trev-sense!

I have a crazy dimensional theory all of my own that doesn't tie in with the standard theories (at least I don't think it does, haven't really looked into it), but it nicely covers things like creation and ghosts and stuff. Anyway, in my theory it could fit that when matter and what we know as anti-matter colide, they change in a way we don't properly understand and phase into another dimension, so we think they've gone, but they haven't, they still exist in the same location just in a dimension we can't measure. Some extreme force in our dimension can bring them back into existence again.

That doesn't really say much about the energy available inside, but I've obviously misunderstood ZPE, I'm sure someone was on TV talking about it like it's some magical thing to do with absolute zero!

[Darren-K]

Anyway, in my theory it could fit that when matter and what we know as anti-matter colide, they change in a way we don't properly understand and phase into another dimension, so we think they've gone, but they haven't, they still exist in the same location just in a dimension we can't measure. Some extreme force in our dimension can bring them back into existence again.

 

Tbourner,thats the string theory.

[Ewen]

just to add, if you read this you will be better equipped to discuss it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_fusion

Looks like a pair of tits to me...