Connecting up an electric pre-lube pump

[georigg]

Some time ago I bought a little 12 Volt gear pump with the intention of fitting it to my JZA80 NA Aero so that on starting the engine, there was already oil pressure to the main engine gallery.

 

My original intent was to take a feed from a tee fitting at the sump drain plug and feed through a tee at the oil pressure sensor switch(NRV fitted to prevent back pressure when engine is running).

 

However, I'm having second thoughts about the feed position and would be obliged if anyone knows of another suitable take off point that could be used............are there any redundant feed positions, blocked off on the non turbo but used for the turbo cars???????

 

As an alternative, is it practical to remove the sump pan with the engine in, which would allow me to fit a machined take off a little higher than the bottom of the sump pan(assuming the pan is in steel)??

 

Appreciate anyones thoughts on this.

Rgds

George

[Tricky-Ricky]

Have to ask, why? is you engine very highly tuned race or drag? or do you want it to last for an extra 100,000 mls? don't really see the point in going to the trouble and expense.

[georigg]

Hi Ricky,

 

No great expense really, the pump is off a mini gas turbine(the kind that powers cruise missiles and "funny cars" and didnt cost much......I reckon the whole job can be done for under £100.

 

Every time you start an engine from cold it relys on the rotating engine to turn the oil pump to give you oil pressure.

 

Next time you start your car, watch the oil light and try and judge how long it takes from the engine first firing to the light going out...........that's how long your engine is basically turning with little or no oil pressure, which in turn means little or no lubrication.

 

Most oil pressure switches will operate around about 5-10PSI and the average engine will rev to about 1000-1400 revs on start up. That's about 16 to 23 revs if it takes your engine one second to build oil pressure/turn off the oil light!

 

There is of course a very thin layer of oil on the bearings from previous operation, but its not enough to fully protect the engine over a long period of time.

 

Sorry about the "full" explanation, but it is a fact that the most damage is done to any rotating equipment particularly at start up, when lubrication is at a minimum.

 

Rgds

George

[Rob]

Maybe if we could invent some sort of magnetic oil it would stick to the pistons and prevent such wear, but what to call it? Something that encompasses the idea of magnetism and new technology...Magnology? Technitism 2000? Slick 50?

[JustGav]

Maybe if we could invent some sort of magnetic oil it would stick to the pistons and prevent such wear, but what to call it? Something that encompasses the idea of magnetism and new technology...Magnology? Technitism 2000? Slick 50?

 

Castrol Magnatex (apparently...), mind you most oils contain some compounds that promote a form of adhesion to metal parts.

[JustGav]

Hi Ricky,

 

No great expense really, the pump is off a mini gas turbine(the kind that powers cruise missiles and "funny cars" and didnt cost much......I reckon the whole job can be done for under £100.

 

Every time you start an engine from cold it relys on the rotating engine to turn the oil pump to give you oil pressure.

 

Next time you start your car, watch the oil light and try and judge how long it takes from the engine first firing to the light going out...........that's how long your engine is basically turning with little or no oil pressure, which in turn means little or no lubrication.

 

Most oil pressure switches will operate around about 5-10PSI and the average engine will rev to about 1000-1400 revs on start up. That's about 16 to 23 revs if it takes your engine one second to build oil pressure/turn off the oil light!

 

There is of course a very thin layer of oil on the bearings from previous operation, but its not enough to fully protect the engine over a long period of time.

 

Sorry about the "full" explanation, but it is a fact that the most damage is done to any rotating equipment particularly at start up, when lubrication is at a minimum.

 

Rgds

George

 

You are correct with your explaination, however modern true race engines are built with such tight tolerances they will require that initial lubrication, (some even need the engine to be warm before it will turn). Modern commercial cars will have tolerances built in, is it worth installing? depends on you and your time really

[Rob]

Castrol Magnatex (apparently...), mind you most oils contain some compounds that promote a form of adhesion to metal parts.

 

Ah, so it's been done already?

[paul mac]

i recently bought a used engine off someone on this board with 100,000 miles on it as a rebuild project i am amazed at the condition off the bearings, the little ends are spot on not a hint of play, the pistons stil measure in tolerance and the big ends and crank journals also look like new, the key to this is regular servicing, a pre oiler IMHO is a complete and utter waste of time but if it makes you happy go for it fella

[Tricky-Ricky]

Hi Ricky,

 

No great expense really, the pump is off a mini gas turbine(the kind that powers cruise missiles and "funny cars" and didn't cost much......I reckon the whole job can be done for under £100.

 

Every time you start an engine from cold it relys on the rotating engine to turn the oil pump to give you oil pressure.

 

Next time you start your car, watch the oil light and try and judge how long it takes from the engine first firing to the light going out...........that's how long your engine is basically turning with little or no oil pressure, which in turn means little or no lubrication.

 

Most oil pressure switches will operate around about 5-10PSI and the average engine will rev to about 1000-1400 revs on start up. That's about 16 to 23 revs if it takes your engine one second to build oil pressure/turn off the oil light!

 

There is of course a very thin layer of oil on the bearings from previous operation, but its not enough to fully protect the engine over a long period of time.

 

Sorry about the "full" explanation, but it is a fact that the most damage is done to any rotating equipment particularly at start up, when lubrication is at a minimum.

 

Rgds

George

 

 

 

Thanks for taking the time on the explanation, but i am fully conversant with the infernal combustion engine;)

 

However my question still stands, with modern oils and engine materials, there is no real need to go to that much trouble, as already mentioned the 2JZ lump is perfectly capable of mega mileages with no problems, providing its maintained well, in fact most engines since the 60s have been perfectly happy due to the above mentioned technology,

the "engines wear most in the startup/cold ruining faze" although true to a degree, is also a bit of hype to sell their oil;)

But if fitting a pump make you feel better about your engine, then in the end thats what modifying/tuning is all about:)

I'm all for clever bits of engine gizmo's/gadgets, but i have realised that sometimes you can just end up making work for yourself.

[Kranz]

Go for it mate. If its what you want to do for peace of mind then do it.

I nearly did it with my old Jag that was running on LPG as when hot (it was on thin oil) the oil pressure light would flash on when coming down to idle from a high speed.

 

Link it up to the oil pressure warning light and it'll be automatic (and possibly save your engine in the event of a oil pressure failure, as unlikely as that is to happen).

[georigg]

Hi Kranz,

Had the same problem on my last Supra, max of about 40PSI hot and down to about 2-3PSI at tick-over(130K on the clock by that time).

 

It cost over £1200 to overhaul the engine, so on a scale of 1 to 10, paying out about £100 to potentially remove this future failure makes sense.

 

For everyone else's info, I'm a rotating equipment engineer and have spent a lifetime working on pumped systems, turbines and diesels which in turn requires at least an understanding of lubrication issues.

 

Its no coincidence that such equipment includes electric drive pumps, as well as those driven off the main rotating elements. Common knowledge therefore that the most damage potential occurs at start up and to a lesser extent at run down.

 

I've already trial-installed a relay system to the starter circuit, which prevents engine firing until oil pressure is sensed, so the pump unit is just the next phase of this exercise.

Rgds

George

[Tricky-Ricky]

First if your old Supra only had 140k on it and it was suffering very low oil pressure, then i would suggest it was down to oil pump problems, IE contamination etc, as its the first to see oil as it sits only millimetres above the oil level and it never really drains down fully, there are plenty of Supras with very high mileages, still on the original oil pump.

 

As for take off and feed positions, i would advise to take off the sump and weld a feed pipe onto the side, there should be sufficient clearance, i have a temp sensor take off there, the T fitting at the drain is just to prone to being knocked off,

and AFAIK the N/A block has no oil take offs on the block, but it may be worth asking any of those who have fitted a turbo conversion;) i would be inclined to use a T into the oil pressure switch for the feed, but be careful what design and materials you use for it, as a crack/failure could be catastrophic

[ManwithSupra]

(some even need the engine to be warm before it will turn

 

No offence in relation to your comment Mate but... since Hammond drove the f1 car on top gear and commented on the fact that the F1 engines tolerances are so exact the engine cannot turn when cold... i just found it funny cos now i have heard this comment hundreds of time lol

[paul mac]

 

For everyone else's info, I'm a rotating equipment engineer and have spent a lifetime working on pumped systems, turbines and diesels which in turn requires at least an understanding of lubrication issues.

 

Its no coincidence that such equipment includes electric drive pumps, as well as those driven off the main rotating elements. Common knowledge therefore that the most damage potential occurs at start up and to a lesser extent at run down.

 

i also work with large rotating plant namely 2 x 660mw NEI Parsons turbines fed steam from 2 x nuclear reactors (thats about 1 million hp per turbine:p) I presume you are talking about the high pessure jacking oil system here which has absolutely nothing to do with what you are proposing, our turbines have a shaft diameter of something like 2 foot the jacking oil is used at low rpm to prevent the shaft from hitting the bearings, its hardly a fair comparison with a Supra crankshaft , what pressure will your pump system generate ?, mate i'm all for technical innovation but unless you plan to run the car into your retirement what are you hoping to achieve ?

[Scooter]

if find it funny that BPU BPU+ etc are happily recommended mods and yet someone thinking of modding to simply try and increase the life of their engine is so vehemently opposed/questioned?

[paul mac]

yet someone thinking of modding to simply try and increase the life of their engine

 

thats just it mate on a properly serviced car this is not a mod, its an absolute waste of time, is there one single production car in the world that has a pump fitted like this as standard