dangerous brain Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 Interesting thread. Also interesting predicament with the use of information gleaned from German WW2 testing. Lets face it that sort of information is impossible to come by without doing what they did, right and wrong aside our current medical advances in these fields would be significantly behind what it is. (I'd also go as far as saying that alot of advances made by the allied countries in medical science was directly attributable to this research, we get lied to so much by governments and their bodies we'd never know or find out). As far as humanity and what its really like I think alot of people live in some sort of bubble world. Humans full stop are nasty pieces of work. Within every individual lurks a horrible beast. That small experiment that was number 10 proved that, as does behaviour in every war thats ever been fought. I guarantee you that if you removed a mans shelter, his food source, and threatened his life that man would become a completely different animal, no matter how moralistic he considers himself. I don't agree with the sort of testing that these people did and I sure as sh*t wouldn't want to be the guy being tested on. I just hope that in my lifetime I'm not the poor bugger that gets on the wrong end of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahamc Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 ...Within every individual lurks a horrible beast... Have to agree! Humans as a race and individuals are capable of terrible things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted March 28, 2008 Author Share Posted March 28, 2008 Also interesting predicament with the use of information gleaned from German WW2 testing. Lets face it that sort of information is impossible to come by without doing what they did, right and wrong aside our current medical advances in these fields would be significantly behind what it is. I can kind of understand if it were all for something of use...but some of the experiments seemed to show just serve no purpose. For example chopping off limbs and and sowing them back on the opposite way around. What purpose can that possibly server? Or how about vivisection performed on live patients? Removing the stomach and attaching the Oesophagus directly to the colon? I just can't see the point of these things. I suppose we have to also consider that in the modern world we take so much for granted. We know and understand so much more - so we can look back and think how barbaric things were...when I guess they didn't know any better? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tannhauser Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 Regarding the Stanford prison experiment, the creator of that one wrote a book called The Lucifer Effect, trying to identify what turns otherwise good people into culprits of the most horrible attrocities. It's definately not an easy read (very long and tiny print!) but seems really interesting so far. It started out as an honest enough experiment which went very badly wrong (well, maybe it went very badly right I suppose given their objectives). It's suprising how easy the right environment, peers and dehumanisation of the victims can turn people to be monsters. We all like to think of the perpetrators as a 'few bad apples' in the barrel of mankind, but looking at recent cases of genocide and mass rape / murder tells a different story. Agree with Ian here. The Stanford Prison study has no place being on that list. Undoubtedly the 'prisoners' were ill-treated, but consider the following: 1) there was no physical abuse to speak of 2) it only lasted four days 3) Zimbardo, though initially caught up in his role as 'prison superintendent', finished the study as soon as an outsider (Christine Maslach) pointed out how unethical it was becoming 4) Participants were thoroughly debriefed to check for any trauma 5) Participants suffering the most were able to withdraw from the 'prison'(four, not two as stated were removed from the study) 6) The study led to the development of ethical guidelines to better regulate psychology procedures It's a very different kettle of fish to the other stuff on there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangerous brain Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 I can kind of understand if it were all for something of use...but some of the experiments seemed to show just serve no purpose. For example chopping off limbs and and sowing them back on the opposite way around. What purpose can that possibly server? Or how about vivisection performed on live patients? Removing the stomach and attaching the Oesophagus directly to the colon? I just can't see the point of these things. I suppose we have to also consider that in the modern world we take so much for granted. We know and understand so much more - so we can look back and think how barbaric things were...when I guess they didn't know any better? Don't get me wrong here the stuff they did was not nice and in amongst the stuff that proved usefull was alot of stuff that was utterly just pain inducing for no reason. As for them not knowing any better I think we can rule that out, we all from the age of around 12 know the difference between what is essentially right and wrong just from that age we can choose to ingnore it or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tannhauser Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 Off-topic: A snippet about the Stanford study that always amazes me. One of the 'prisoners' went to see Zimbardo to ask to be released. Whilst he was talking, the guards got the other prisoners to chant 'Prisoner 891 did a bad thing, prisoner 891 did a bad thing!'. The student broke down in tears and asked Zimbardo to let him go back to the prison. When Zimbardo asked him why, he said that he 'didn't want the others to think that he was a bad prisoner'. Zimbardo said to him 'But you're not a bad prisoner. You're not a 'prisoner' at all, you're a college student'. Zimbardo said that it 'looked as though a cloud had been lifted' from the student's mind. It had only taken two or three days for a Stanford University undergraduate, who knew he was taking part in a simulation, to start losing his identity and thinking of himself as a prisoner. Weird. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted March 28, 2008 Author Share Posted March 28, 2008 ys for a Stanford University undergraduate, who knew he was taking part in a simulation, to start losing his identity and thinking of himself as a prisoner. Weird. That amazed me too. After such a short period of time people reverted to their stereo types or positions. In the 'real' world I can't imagine myself becoming like that. Is there really such a thin line between role play and reality? Maybe this is why some people enjoy RPG so much and computer games. We can easily adapt ourselves to environments and required behaviours. We really are an interesting species. I'm almost just as amazed that we've managed to have a decent chat about something on here recently without it descending into turmoil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangerous brain Posted March 29, 2008 Share Posted March 29, 2008 I'm almost just as amazed that we've managed to have a decent chat about something on here recently without it descending into turmoil. Be careful what you wish for Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustGav Posted March 29, 2008 Share Posted March 29, 2008 That amazed me too. After such a short period of time people reverted to their stereo types or positions. In the 'real' world I can't imagine myself becoming like that. Is there really such a thin line between role play and reality? Maybe this is why some people enjoy RPG so much and computer games. We can easily adapt ourselves to environments and required behaviours. We really are an interesting species. I'm almost just as amazed that we've managed to have a decent chat about something on here recently without it descending into turmoil. I would like to bring reality TV to the table, telly has finally blurred the lines now between what is real and what isn't. There are people out there that base their lives on what they see on telly...why shouldn't it happen with computer games? PS: Every now and then, even this place sees reality and realises it is just a friendly INTERNET forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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