marbleapple Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 I'm sorry, had I known you had become the OP's spokesman, I would have addressed the question to you. Sorry CJ I thought it was an open discussion, I didn't realise that you would take offence to me putting my own opinion in. Next time I'll ask your permission 1st Anyway, can you tell me which passage of verses bans alcohol? I ask as I had always thought that in the Bible it stated that Jesus Christ had performed a miracle whereby he turned water to wine and during the last supper also encouraged the disciples to drink it too. I'll have to get back to you on that one since I don't know where to be honest. I would point out that the whole book is open to interpretation and depends on your type of Christianity now doesn't it? Methodists (certainly Wesleyan Methodists) are against drinking and gambling since it is the root of evil as implied by Jesus kicking out the gamblers etc. (I'll ask my gran if you really want). My personal opinion (which i admit is more liberal to the more religious members of my family) is that a lot of the bible can be read in different ways. For example, Even Jesus went into the desert for 40 days and 40 nights (which translates in Arabic I believe to 'a long time') and was helped by Ravens (which again can be translated into 'Arab'). Ah, so there are no English Catholics then eh? My point was that we are harping on about our country being a christian country and we should refuse other cultural influences even though our religion was imported into our shores by another country's people (the ROMANS). Would also ask who is the head of the Roman Catholic church and where he lives? And on this subject of religion, i am muslim and class myself as a British muslim NOT pakistani muslim. People calling themselves British muslim is rare where I live. All the Muslims I know call themselves Pakistani muslim, which I think is a shame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 Sorry CJ I thought it was an open discussion, I didn't realise that you would take offence to me putting my own opinion in. Next time I'll ask your permission 1st The reason I questioned your response was due to me asking a question of the OP (hence using the quote function) and not a general question. I was intrigued as to why he made the comment. I'll have to get back to you on that one since I don't know where to be honest. I would point out that the whole book is open to interpretation and depends on your type of Christianity now doesn't it? Methodists (certainly Wesleyan Methodists) are against drinking and gambling since it is the root of evil as implied by Jesus kicking out the gamblers etc. (I'll ask my gran if you really want). My personal opinion (which i admit is more liberal to the more religious members of my family) is that a lot of the bible can be read in different ways. For example, Even Jesus went into the desert for 40 days and 40 nights (which translates in Arabic I believe to 'a long time') and was helped by Ravens (which again can be translated into 'Arab'). So, to shorten your answer, you cannot actually substantiate your original comment. My questioning of the OP's post was to find out what he considered Christian and Christianity. To my mind, if one believes in Jesus Christ, then by default, one is a Christian. If any Christian decides against going to Church etc, that doesn't mean they are not Christian, which is what (I think) the OP was trying to imply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marbleapple Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 The reason I questioned your response was due to me asking a question of the OP (hence using the quote function) and not a general question. I was intrigued as to why he made the comment. . Yes and my response to you was never intended to be a reply for OP. My questioning of the OP's post was to find out what he considered Christian and Christianity. . And my initial post was to try ask you how is it possible to get a definite definition when even the Bible is open to interpretation and different types of Christianity are different from one another? So, to shorten your answer, you cannot actually substantiate your original comment. . To shorten it further... I thought I just did? Ask a Wesleyan Methodist if the Bible allows him to drink and gamble.. the answer is no. If you want a specific page number I'll ask my Gran because I don't know, I just accept what i was taught in my local church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marbleapple Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 To my mind, if one believes in Jesus Christ, then by default, one is a Christian. If any Christian decides against going to Church etc, that doesn't mean they are not Christian, which is what (I think) the OP was trying to imply. I agree with you 100% here CJ but I know OP’s view is shared by many more conservative Christians (including my brother). His arguement is how can you worship a god if you don't do it in the place he wants you to worship him. I argue that it is how you live your life, not where you go sing songs every Sunday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tannhauser Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 Tann, sorry if my poll doesnt follow the abc of your survey system, maybe i should have put "Continue to follow the path we are treading". Would that make you feel better? It wouldn't make me feel either better or worse. It's simply of interest to me, as questionnaire design is something I touch on at work. I'm just pointing out that if you are sincerely interested in gauging other people's opinions (as opposed to just seeking support for your own views), you won't get meaningful answers in the way you've phrased it - because you've written one option in such an unpalatable way that most people aren't going to agree with it. Having said that, even rephrasing it wouldn't necessarily make it more representative, as the people likely to respond, or to even read the thread, are more likely to have strong views about immigration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uzthedentist Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 I could disagree with other points but will just stick on this one for the time being. Can you explain to me why you think this is not a Christian country and why you think Christianity does not approve of alcohol? This country isnt christian in many ways, there are about a million examples but i could say a couple of glaring ones such as sex before marriage which is accepted as a normal practice. and what christmas has been turned into rather than what it actually should be. the alchohol thing is not the consumption of wine itself (which is the way they used to purify water in those days) but consumption to intoxication Lev. 10:9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiceRocket Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 Anyway, can you tell me which passage of verses bans alcohol? There are no verses in the bible that prohibits alcohol just excessive consumption i.e Proverbs 23:20, 1 Corinthians 5:11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonball Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 Can someone please point me in the direction of the what he (the aussie PM) DID say as I cannot find the link... also if I may point out What God commands Christians regarding alcohol is to avoid drunkenness (Ephesians 5:18). The Bible condemns drunkenness and its effects (Proverbs 23:29-35). Christians are also commanded to not allow their bodies to be “mastered” by anything (1 Corinthians 6:12; 2 Peter 2:19). Drinking alcohol in excess is undeniably addictive. Scripture also forbids a Christian from doing anything that might offend other Christians or might encourage them to sin against their conscience (1 Corinthians 8:9-13). In light of these principles, it would be extremely difficult for any Christian to say he is drinking alcohol to the glory of God (1 Corinthians 10:31). Jesus changed water into wine. It even seems that Jesus drank wine on occasion (John 2:1-11; Matthew 26:29). In New Testament times, the water was not very clean. Without modern sanitation efforts, the water was often filled with bacteria, viruses, and all kinds of contaminants. The same is true in many third-world countries today. As a result, people often drank wine (or grape juice) because it was far less likely to be contaminated. In 1 Timothy 5:23, Paul was instructing Timothy to stop drinking the water (which was probably causing his stomach problems) and instead drink wine. In that day, wine was fermented (containing alcohol), but necessarily not to the degree it is today. It is incorrect to say that it was grape juice, but it is also incorrect to say that it was the same thing as the wine commonly used today. Again, Scripture does not necessarily forbid Christians from drinking beer, wine, or any other drink containing alcohol. Alcohol is not, in and of itself, tainted by sin. It is, rather, drunkenness and addiction to alcohol that a Christian must absolutely refrain from (Ephesians 5:18; 1 Corinthians 6:12). Nowhere, however, does the bible exalt christians to blow people up so that they may look forward to 3000 virgins in the afterlife...Mmmm....? Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 This country isnt christian in many ways, there are about a million examples but i could say a couple of glaring ones such as sex before marriage which is accepted as a normal practice. and what christmas has been turned into rather than what it actually should be. You see, this is where I think you are incorrect. If someone doesn't follow the rules (as you perceive them) it doesn't therefore follow that they are not Christians. Christians are (as implied by the name) believers in Christ. Therefore, for you to say this is not a Christian country, you would have to prove to me that the majority of the people in this country do not believe in Christ. Sadly, I agree, Christmas isn't what it should be. Unfortunately, we have now got to the stage where we have to say happy holiday rather than merry Christmas as apparently it offends other religions. the alchohol thing is not the consumption of wine itself (which is the way they used to purify water in those days) but consumption to intoxication Lev. 10:9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations: Correct me if I am wrong but that quote says that you should not drink wine when you go into a place of worship. Not that you should not drink wine - full stop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uzthedentist Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 Can someone please point me in the direction of the what he (the aussie PM) DID say as I cannot find the link... also if I may point out What God commands Christians regarding alcohol is to avoid drunkenness (Ephesians 5:18). The Bible condemns drunkenness and its effects (Proverbs 23:29-35). Christians are also commanded to not allow their bodies to be “mastered” by anything (1 Corinthians 6:12; 2 Peter 2:19). Drinking alcohol in excess is undeniably addictive. Scripture also forbids a Christian from doing anything that might offend other Christians or might encourage them to sin against their conscience (1 Corinthians 8:9-13). In light of these principles, it would be extremely difficult for any Christian to say he is drinking alcohol to the glory of God (1 Corinthians 10:31). Jesus changed water into wine. It even seems that Jesus drank wine on occasion (John 2:1-11; Matthew 26:29). In New Testament times, the water was not very clean. Without modern sanitation efforts, the water was often filled with bacteria, viruses, and all kinds of contaminants. The same is true in many third-world countries today. As a result, people often drank wine (or grape juice) because it was far less likely to be contaminated. In 1 Timothy 5:23, Paul was instructing Timothy to stop drinking the water (which was probably causing his stomach problems) and instead drink wine. In that day, wine was fermented (containing alcohol), but necessarily not to the degree it is today. It is incorrect to say that it was grape juice, but it is also incorrect to say that it was the same thing as the wine commonly used today. Again, Scripture does not necessarily forbid Christians from drinking beer, wine, or any other drink containing alcohol. Alcohol is not, in and of itself, tainted by sin. It is, rather, drunkenness and addiction to alcohol that a Christian must absolutely refrain from (Ephesians 5:18; 1 Corinthians 6:12). Nowhere, however, does the bible exalt christians to blow people up so that they may look forward to 3000 virgins in the afterlife...Mmmm....? Cheers and in what book does it say that then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 There are no verses in the bible that prohibits alcohol just excessive consumption i.e Proverbs 23:20, 1 Corinthians 5:11 That's what I thought Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uzthedentist Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 You see, this is where I think you are incorrect. If someone doesn't follow the rules (as you perceive them) it doesn't therefore follow that they are not Christians. Christians are (as implied by the name) believers in Christ. Therefore, for you to say this is not a Christian country, you would have to prove to me that the majority of the people in this country do not believe in Christ. Sadly, I agree, Christmas isn't what it should be. Unfortunately, we have now got to the stage where we have to say happy holiday rather than merry Christmas as apparently it offends other religions. Correct me if I am wrong but that quote says that you should not drink wine when you go into a place of worship. Not that you should not drink wine - full stop. I believe in Jesus, does that make me a christian? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 I believe in Jesus, does that make me a christian? Only if you believe that he was the saviour sent by God. And then, if you did, you would be classed as a Christian regardless of whether you went to church or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uzthedentist Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 we believe jesus was the greatest prophet and will come to save the mu'min on the day of judgement Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 we believe jesus was the greatest prophet and will come to save the mu'min on the day of judgement I am not sure I see your point here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifty Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 Irrespective of opinion voiced freely 70 for that action here , small number opposed - the I's have it. btw can anyone tell me how the guy just convicted of terrorism this week got 20000 pounds a year benefits as reported on the BBC. Its not that I begrudge him the money - its just that when I was out of work I was offered 10 pence a week? and Id like to know how he did it? Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uzthedentist Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 Only if you believe that he was the saviour sent by God. And then, if you did, you would be classed as a Christian regardless of whether you went to church or not. so can the rest of the bible can be ignored if you have that belief? or is it irrelevant to christianity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dangerousandy Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 I can't wait for the Civil war to star here!! Im on the front line brothers....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 so can the rest of the bible can be ignored if you have that belief? or is it irrelevant to christianity You are completely missing the point here. Being a Christian means you believe that Jesus Christ was sent here by God and that he is the true saviour. That's it. You want to make out that this country cannot be Christian because the values have slipped etc. Adhering to rules, values or any other form of governance is not being a Christian - believing in the concept of Jesus Christ is. Now, if you had said that this country has become one of slipping vales, low morals and a lack of respect, then I would have had no argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keancy Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 Didn't see this post till now, wish this Country would adopt that. Being foreign to this Country myself (all though British Citizen now) I would never have come here and expected people to understand or speak my Language but I came here with full knowledge of the British Language. The same should go for believes. German believes and cultures are not vastly different from the UK ones but if we moved to India, or Turkey or places in the Middle East we would be "expected" to live by their rules and believes, why should it be different here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifty Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 yes but you are nice so you can stay:p:d Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesmark Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 The poll results are interesting, compared to usual threads that contain this sensitive subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keancy Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 yes but you are nice so you can stay:p:d Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marbleapple Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 Being a Christian means you believe that Jesus Christ was sent here by God and that he is the true saviour. That's it. With respect CJ (and I know I'm butting in again) but isn't above only your interpretation of what a Christian is? I don't associate your above statement as an accurate description of what a Christian is. I think it is a hell of a lot more than that. Your above statement implies you could be a drug dealing rapist and still be a Christian, which is not true. (Note I say 'implies' as I don't think you effectively really mean that). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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