SUPRASUZUKI Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 Like I said in my earlier post. Two groups of people; those that are genuinely interested in the subject, will research the information with a cool head, come up with an opinion - perhaps open to change depending on further info provided and will be keen on having a civil discussion in a calm manner. 2QUOTE] Imi, despite what you might think, I'm in this group. Where can I get a copy of the Quran in English? I'd like to be able to read it and take an informed view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbourner Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 I looked into it before, got given a link from someone on here (can't remember who now), read quite a lot but ended up thinking that it's still all written by one man, so it will always be swayed to that person's opinion! When it's translated that just makes it worse, chinese whispers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 Imi, despite what you might think, I'm in this group. Where can I get a copy of the Quran in English? I'd like to be able to read it and take an informed view. Here you go... http://www.amazon.co.uk/Meaning-Holy-Quran-English-Arabic/dp/1590080165/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=gateway&qid=1200416549&sr=8-1 And Look at the work of Dr Zakir Naik. Good SKY or Internet channel to watch (Daily Programs like Crossfire and Truth Exposed by him) http://www.peacetv.in/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Massey Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 possess very little knowledge about the subject, have very little interest in the subject, dont really give a damn one way or the other, have already formed an opinion one way or the other and regardless of what information / proof is available they will stick to their guns. Which is why I say, the info is out there, it is your choice to do look into it and then make your own decision. If one has already made up their mind from the outset and chooses to ignore all the information / evidence then so be it. so what proof or evidence do you have then since you seem to think we all ignore it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lbm Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 so what proof or evidence do you have then since you seem to think we all ignore it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 so what proof or evidence do you have then since you seem to think we all ignore it If you are interested, check out the links that I have sent on this thread. Its a good starting point should you be genuinely interested. Ciao Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangerous brain Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 For a start...I think you will find that there is no such thing as MUSLIM LAW, its called Islamic LAW (Shariah) As you are a A grade student of religious studies, any references that can back up this statement of yours? Like I said in my earlier post. Two groups of people; those that are genuinely interested in the subject, will research the information with a cool head, come up with an opinion - perhaps open to change depending on further info provided and will be keen on having a civil discussion in a calm manner. 2nd group - possess very little knowledge about the subject, have very little interest in the subject, dont really give a damn one way or the other, have already formed an opinion one way or the other and regardless of what information / proof is available they will stick to their guns. Oh and to have a discussion in a civil manner is really not high on their agenda. Spoken like a true shove it down your neck religiousite. Usage of complete ignorance of the other persons point of view is uppermost and you'll find referencing the points of an argument they want to reference with childish word play thrown in whilst avoiding some of the most salient parts of the argument is all part of the smoke screening process. The whole undeniable fact is that neither argument can be proven or disproven there is in fact no "proof" whatsoever of any type of deity just a bunch of happenings that currently cannot be explained. As for my A grade in religious studies it is a mere GCSE not your wordly degree level obviously. I'm sorry but I refuse to accept the ministrations of any cleric that behaves more like a dodgy salesman than a man of spiritual guidance. You are right there are in fact two groups of people. One that is swayable using the aforementioned methods to your way of thinking and those that have enough of their own minds to realise when they are being flanneled with BS. I don't mind having discussions about things but cannot abide false proofs being used shall we say as gospel and the highlighting of human failings as the reason that we need whichever religion thats being touted is not enough of an excuse for it to be actually right. Don't get me wrong here I actually agree with the core values of most religions its just the implemenatation and interpretations of the values that grips my sh*t Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lbm Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 Damn you Dangerous Brain, you put that across better than me THE POLL SO FAR FOR BELIEVING IN GOD THEN... 100 SAY NO 28 SAY YES 23 ARE UNDECIDED Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattanna Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 fact, when most religious texts were written, water was unsafe to drink, so they drank wine, therefore in the case of christianity(at least) they were always drunk, no wonder the stories were so tall, and they saw blokes walking on water!!, there is no proof either way, in my job i see people die most days, you tend to find that people when in trouble believe and when not in trouble are not sure, but what we all want is that the end is not more painful than the life itself, so if it is a total extinction, nothingness then it will be ok, if it is heaven etc then it should be ok and if it is hell death is worse than life which is not ok, all i know is noone has come back to tell me:p ps Dangerous well said!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Massey Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 If you are interested, check out the links that I have sent on this thread. Its a good starting point should you be genuinely interested. Ciao errrr i did and there is no proof or evidence so you think you are right and the only one that is right and your religion is the only TRUE religion because either a) you believe in it or b) all this proof you have? as i said in an earlier post i was agnostic and spent a few years deciding what religion i wanted to believe in if any and came to the conclusion that not one religion was 100% correct or honest and none of them made sense and its not because im thick or narrow minded at all before you try and say that. i was clever, read up on the subject and listened to peoples point of view then went with what i think is right. yeah ill will admit i think i am right but i dont force that on other people or do i tell them that they are wrong. in todays society its not about religion or which god you believe in, its the fact you that have a faith, something to belive in, it gives you hope, desire, and a sense of belonging but its only religious people that dont see that, there narrow minded, they dont like new things,changes or things they cant trust in the olden days christians killed scientists coz they thaught it was the work of the devil but in reality they were scared iv got a clip for you to watch, someone posted it on here last year sometime, the first bit is about religion now i hope you do watch it and give your honest opinion http://zeitgeistmovie.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJI Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 Why is the argument of 'non can be proven either way' still existing ? Science has been proven time and time again.... otherwise its not classed as science. Evolution has been proven time and time again with fast reproducing bacteria and other small organisms. They breed a batch of organisms and then intorduce them to a toxic environment.... it kills 99.9% of the living matter... but then as they keep reproducing they mutate and evolve. And once again they have a petri dish full of bacteria. The existence of yearly winter cold bugs is also proof of evolution etc. Do these facts not undermine the whole basis of most religions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangerous brain Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 Why is the argument of 'non can be proven either way' still existing ? Science has been proven time and time again.... otherwise its not classed as science. Evolution has been proven time and time again with fast reproducing bacteria and other small organisms. They breed a batch of organisms and then intorduce them to a toxic environment.... it kills 99.9% of the living matter... but then as they keep reproducing they mutate and evolve. And once again they have a petri dish full of bacteria. The existence of yearly winter cold bugs is also proof of evolution etc. Do these facts not undermine the whole basis of most religions? In one word no it doesn't undermine the WHOLE basis of most religions at all. In many words. It undermines some points of the major religions. The whole evolution and how the world came to be as written by men in their early days is undermined for sure. Evolution itself doesn't however disprove the existance of a deity or higher entity. Science itself doesn't disprove it either as there is still an awful lot of unexplained stuff in the world. In my mind these unexplained things will eventually with expanding technology be explained one way or another but scientifically we cannot rule it out as yet. Something thats unexplained is by its very nature capable of having more than one outcome and as long as one of the outcomes could be the existance of a deity then that avenue remains open. The major problem with most popular religious sects is they all stem from human mutterings and are heavily open to abuse by interpretation and political ends. If you were to say to me I think there is an entity operating on a higher plane than us I would have to agree to that being a possibility, I'm a bit Thomas about it and would want to see it with my own eyes but I would agree its a possibilty. Start telling me that this entity had a little chat with you and told you a whole bunch of rules that the entire populace should live by and I'm afraid to say you just lost all your credibility. This is indeed my whole bug bear with religions. The basic message of acting in a correct fashion in society is IMO a very noble thing and we should do this as a matter of course. The fact that we need offering incentives to do whats right is a sad fact of huamnity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chilli Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 hmmm, I've tried to avoid this thread, but I'll inject my 2pennith "Believe", well you can believe in anything you like (God, Tooth fairy, Father Christmas or the Hogfather) and if that's what you want to believe, have been brought up to believe, your culture grinds it into you or there is something missing in your life for which God fills the void and helps you make sense of things, then why not... Even if you "just feel like it", you're entitled to that. But it should not be the basis of law, war or morals (some of the moral lessons in religious texts are hideous, misogynist and would be judged quite wrong by most modern cultures). But anyway, whatever the case "believing" in something doesn't make it any more probable, real or true - that much we can be 100% sure of (otherwise, if I believe hard enough that my supra has 1000bhp... ahhh if only, but what I think and believe is totally irrelevant to what's real). The whole problem is that God makes the improbable nature of the universe even more improbable! How improbable is it to have a all powerful creator that somehow just appeared (or perhaps "always existed!"), who decided to design and create the universe and then have a hands off (but still be around) approach for the rest of all time. At the end of the day, the majority of religious beliefs ultimately boil down to one man (or a group of men) some long time ago asking us to believe that they heard God, God spoke to them, they are somehow "special", they witnessed a miracle (which is just something unexplainable at the time) - although over time these incidents may gain momentum for people who want something to believe in, I don't care if the rest of the world believes in it, that's no evidence, proof, or reason to believe. Anyway how on earth do we decide who is right and who is wrong, so many contradictions and "interpretations" - it's often a case of interpret it in which ever way suits your purpose and I guess as is often the case, people hear what they want to hear, believe what they want to believe... My thoughts for the moment, from someone who is logically 9/10 atheist but reserves an 1/10 agnostic view point to be fair and open should anything stronger than just plain old belief come along [no offence intended or should be implied from the above, that's my personal opinion formed over many years of thinking about it and reading some good work on the problem, it's my current "belief" shall we say ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJI Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 db - if it undermines some points of a religion does that not then lead you to belive/think that all that particular religion is then undermined.... as so much of it is contradictory to science? As it is still preached in churches etc. that everything was created by a 'being' (and as I think, its on the first few pages of the bible)... then does it not set a standard for the rest of the preachings? Then lead you to think that hmmm... maybe its just a load of ******* ? Surely being religious is not about only selecting the parts of a religion that you think are correct and ignoring the rest? Its about believing what is written in old books and believing what is being preached to you by a well established system. (again, just my own views... not intending to offend anyone). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 Spoken like a true shove it down your neck religiousite. Usage of complete ignorance of the other persons point of view is uppermost and you'll find referencing the points of an argument they want to reference with childish word play thrown in whilst avoiding some of the most salient parts of the argument is all part of the smoke screening process. Hmm...think you will find yourself guilty of that.....I am still waiting for a reference from either the Quran or the Hadith to back up the statement that you made in your earlier post. After all you are an A Grade GCSE Grad. I'm sorry but I refuse to accept the ministrations of any cleric that behaves more like a dodgy salesman than a man of spiritual guidance. Why don't you look at the content of the presentation and challenge that then? He has always said that he is open to being corrected, so why not put your view forward and correct him if you think you know better. You are right there are in fact two groups of people. One that is swayable using the aforementioned methods to your way of thinking and those that have enough of their own minds to realise when they are being flanneled with BS. I don't mind having discussions about things but cannot abide false proofs being used shall we say as gospel and the highlighting of human failings as the reason that we need whichever religion thats being touted is not enough of an excuse for it to be actually right. Don't get me wrong here I actually agree with the core values of most religions its just the implemenatation and interpretations of the values that grips my sh*t think you are guilty again of Usage of complete ignorance of the other persons point of view is uppermost and you'll find referencing the points of an argument they want to reference with childish word play thrown in whilst avoiding some of the most salient parts of the argument is all part of the smoke screening process. and as you further more prove your ignorance. I'm sorry but I refuse to accept the ministrations of any cleric that behaves more like a dodgy salesman than a man of spiritual guidance. Each to their own as far as what you believe. If you dont have the sense to discuss without getting personal or slandering which you clearly have (Still waiting for your proof) then you are clearly not fit to be part of this discussion and its a waste of my time. Atleast some of the others that have participated on this thread discussion come across more mature and genuinely interested. I like others am a student and am constantly trying to better myself (knowledge) - so questioning is actually healthy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbourner Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 Maybe the meaning of life is to find the answer, there are people all over the world trying to find the answer, whether through sience or various religions, they don't have to it's just natural to want to know. Maybe this desire is programmed in by the creator, just like the underlying instinct to survive above all else (even though intelligence has overridden most of our instincts, survival is still there and very strong). Who knows, maybe the 'one' who does eventually find the answer to the universe/string theory/god/etc. will be the 'one' that is allowed passage - passage to what I don't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJI Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 the meaning of life if you require a meaning; then its purely 'to survive'. This applies to all life not only humans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbourner Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 Doesn't the bible say that god created the world in 6 days? Does that mean he didn't do the rest of the universe? Now we know that the rest of space doesn't actually revolve around the Earth what does that mean for god's list of creations? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lbm Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 Doesn't the bible say that god created the world in 6 days? Does that mean he didn't do the rest of the universe? Now we know that the rest of space doesn't actually revolve around the Earth what does that mean for god's list of creations? Yeah, for instance, do you honestly think God put all the stars in the sky for us to look at them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lbm Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 Hmm...think you will find yourself guilty of that.....I am still waiting for a reference from either the Quran or the Hadith to back up the statement that you made in your earlier post. After all you are an A Grade GCSE Grad. Why don't you look at the content of the presentation and challenge that then? He has always said that he is open to being corrected, so why not put your view forward and correct him if you think you know better. think you are guilty again of and as you further more prove your ignorance. Each to their own as far as what you believe. If you dont have the sense to discuss without getting personal or slandering which you clearly have (Still waiting for your proof) then you are clearly not fit to be part of this discussion and its a waste of my time. Atleast some of the others that have participated on this thread discussion come across more mature and genuinely interested. I like others am a student and am constantly trying to better myself (knowledge) - so questioning is actually healthy. Hey Imi What are the benefits of religion as you see it over the benefits of holding a non religious view point? There, a simple question, what you gotta say? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbourner Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 Yeah, for instance, do you honestly think God put all the stars in the sky for us to look at them? Well it doesn't matter what I think, what does religion have to say about it? Did god create EVERYTHING? Or was the universe here first and god just gave us little humans a home? Basically I want to know if proving the existence of extra terrestrials would dis-prove the existence of god? It's gotta be easier to prove that aliens exist than it is to prove or disprove god!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorin Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 Yes I created everything, no you are not alone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Massey Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 :)Hmm...think you will find yourself guilty of that..... Each to their own as far as what you believe. If you dont have the sense to discuss without getting personal or slandering which you clearly have (Still waiting for your proof) then you are clearly not fit to be part of this discussion and its a waste of my time.. Atleast some of the others that have participated on this thread discussion come across more mature and genuinely interested. i think youll find its you that are guilty you go on as if its your way or the high way its your religion that is the one and we should adhere to it weve had no proof from you which you claim to have but at the end of the day you cannot prove it, just like i cant prove otherwise its a belief not a fact just coz there is a book doesnt make it real or fact Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
and1c Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 I don't. Think about what you are saying. A man in the sky that looks down on us? Please. Seriously though, everyone to their own. Who said god is a man? The idea of there being a supreme being (God) is one I used to believe in totally, but the state of the world currently has tested my faith..but I still believe totally. Its like the age old question, is there life on other planets except earth? The answer: There are hundreds of billions of galaxies outside our own solar system (and we can only see 3000 of them so far, using hubble)link...to say there isnt earth like planets on them just like our own (where there is life), would be rather narrow minded IMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Animal Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 just coz there is a book doesnt make it real or fact Noooo! Hobbits are real I tell you. They must be - I swear there's one in our IT department. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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